multiracial churches

[py3ak]

That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.

 

[calgal]

That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.

True but there is a difference between welcoming and being fake. And that might be a good start. Sorry to try and derail the OP: multicultural churches are good as long as being multicultural does not become an idol.

 

[Notthemama1984]

That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.

True but there is a difference between welcoming and being fake. And that might be a good start. Sorry to try and derail the OP: multicultural churches are good as long as being multicultural does not become an idol.

At the sake of being repetitive, we are talking about multiracial churches, not multicultural. As Anthony Carter has said before, the church needs a culturally neutral service where all races can come together and join in worship.

 

[calgal]

That sounds like a very amusing conversation, as long as there was some way to put a definite end to it! I think we run into some trouble when we reason, 'This is the way I behave towards others, so this is the way they should treat me.' And it is particularly sad when churches are judged on this basis, because we deem as spiritual deficiencies what probably has far more to do with corporate culture and people's local ideas about courtesy and propriety.

True but there is a difference between welcoming and being fake. And that might be a good start. Sorry to try and derail the OP: multicultural churches are good as long as being multicultural does not become an idol.

At the sake of being repetitive, we are talking about multiracial churches, not multicultural. As Anthony Carter has said before, the church needs a culturally neutral service where all races can come together and join in worship.

True but how (given cultural norms for worship) can that be done without discounting anyone's traditions or culture?

 

[Notthemama1984]

I am by no means an expert, but both Dr. Woo and brother. Carter have talked to me about how it is a constant process. A process of tweaking. There is not a one size fits all.

 

[Edward]

Style is a cop out answer.

Since I don't do flame wars on the Lord's day, I'll respond to you tomorrow.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Style is a cop out answer.

Since I don't do flame wars on the Lord's day, I'll respond to you tomorrow.

Fair enough.

 

[boschertjd18]

A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.

race=ethnic group=some cultural elements?

So if a bunch of bikers (specifically Harley riders, since I'm from WI) form a "culture", is the church supposed to specifically reach out to them? What about vampire groups? Or sports oriented folks? The list goes on...

If instead you want to focus on pigmentation, how exactly do you go about that? Do you reach people by shades of color? Ancestral region?

 

[Notthemama1984]

A congregation that has several ethnic groups represented. Ethnicity is defined in party by culture, but that does not mean the worship services should be multicultural.

race=ethnic group=some cultural elements?

So if a bunch of bikers (specifically Harley riders, since I'm from WI) form a "culture", is the church supposed to specifically reach out to them? What about vampire groups? Or sports oriented folks? The list goes on...

If instead you want to focus on pigmentation, how exactly do you go about that? Do you reach people by shades of color? Ancestral region?

Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.

Again, I am not advocating some affirmative action style church. I am talking about actively engaging all of the ethnic groups and subcultures that are present in the area of the church instead of focusing primarily on one group and every so often half heartily reaching out to the people who are not like us.

 

[boschertjd18]

Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.

Again, I am not advocating some affirmative action style church. I am talking about actively engaging all of the ethnic groups and subcultures that are present in the area of the church instead of focusing primarily on one group and every so often half heartily reaching out to the people who are not like us.

But this is part of my point - how do you reach out to all of the subgroups and subcultures before it turns into "everybody".

I'm also assuming that when you say ethnic groups, it means 1st generation immigrants from their respective host country. Otherwise it gets really messy trying to target ethnic groups if you're a mutt like me.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Of course you reach out to the bikers and vampires. Are they not good enough for the Gospel? It doesn't mean we turn the church into a biker church, but it does mean the church reaches out to that group and treats them like everyone else. They are not the weird group or the outcasts. They are our brothers and sisters who happen to have different preferences when it comes to hobbies.

Again, I am not advocating some affirmative action style church. I am talking about actively engaging all of the ethnic groups and subcultures that are present in the area of the church instead of focusing primarily on one group and every so often half heartily reaching out to the people who are not like us.

But this is part of my point - how do you reach out to all of the subgroups and subcultures before it turns into "everybody".

I'm also assuming that when you say ethnic groups, it means 1st generation immigrants from their respective host country. Otherwise it gets really messy trying to target ethnic groups if you're a mutt like me.

I am not sure where we are missing each other in the discussion. The Gospel does not need to be packaged differently for different groups. It simply needs to be presented. I am not advocating a special outreach program for bikers, another for sports guys, another for the guys who play chess in the park, etc.

We simply need to be aware of all the various groups that are out there and make sure we are witnessing to those groups just as much as we are to groups that look like us.

 

[newcreature]

Thank you for the book suggestion. I will try to obtain a copy of it.

As for the welcoming. Although it can go overboard at some churches, the visitors should feel welcomed and at least someone should say hello.

If my brother knocks on my door today, I am not going to open the door, let him in, and ignore him. I am going to say hello and see how he is doing at a bare minimum. If this is the case with our physical brothers, why should our spiritual brothers be any different?

I think you hit the nail on the head here. As Christians, we should make our brothers and sisters feel welcome. I don't think it should matter their race, ethnicity, or any other background. It is not necessary to look like or act like someone in order to make them feel genuinely welcome in your church, home, workplace, or any place.

I do agree with you that we need to be careful of how we interact with the world. They should see something in us that sets us apart. We need to be kind, patient, demonstrating the fruit of the spirit. If we are truly loving in this way, then all people should feel welcome in our congregations regardless of race or culture.

 

[VilnaGaon]

Christianity is the only Monotheistic Faith in which different races actually get along with each other. Any Sephardic or Ethiopian Jew would be ostracised and have his Jewishness questioned in a white Ashkenazic Synagogue. Similiarly with a Pakistani Muslim in an Arab Mosque. No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.

 

[Montanablue]

No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.

This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.

 

[tlharvey7]

brother Voddie does a great job on this subject:
SermonAudio.com - Grace Family Baptist Church

 

[Kevin]

No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.

This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.

Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?

 

[CovenantalBaptist]

I think that this is more an issue in more ethnically homogeneous areas that have had more recent historical segregation than heterogeneous cities which have a more integrated history. Our church began in 1974 and was reflective of the city of its day - mostly white. Now, like the city of Toronto today, it is thoroughly mixed to the point where it doesn't really make sense to even identify people by groups. About a third of our married families are what some would call "interracial"- I think that's a misnomer (see the article below). Our largest minority is Filipino and probably its white after that. According to some estimates, the city of Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world. Our 911 Emergency service answers calls in 140 different languages!

However, on the "race" issue, biblically, I think we need to talk in terms of one race not these artificial divisions that are created by minor variations in skin color and facial features. I think this article by AiG is helpful Are there Really Different Races?.

 

[kvanlaan]

Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?

I haven't seen it, and as far as I know, the "Sons of Ham Curse" line has been dead for aeons.

This view may change, as our big test is still ahead. Being black and being friends with your son is often fine. But when your son has a sister of roughly the same age as the friend who is overly friendly with said friend, things can change...

 

[A.J.]

These papers are helpful too:

OPC's Report of the Committee on the Problem of Race

PCA's Pastoral Letter on Racism

Both contain Scriptural refutations of the ideology that undergirds racism. They also address contemporary issues Reformed churches are facing especially in the area of missions and evangelism.

FYI, racism is alive and well in my own region (and probably in other Asian regions too), and most don't even realize it in my opinion!

 

[Montanablue]

No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.

This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.

Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?

I could give you numerous anecdotes from my own experience, but I won't bore you with the particulars. Suffice it to say that I have run into numerous Christians who tie unbelief or paganism to a particular "race" or culture and say that it is God's judgment on those people. (Usually, they use the term race, but really they're speaking of a culture). Generally the verse I've heard used is the one about God visiting judgment on the descendants of those who hate him.

And then there are the legions of individuals who, while they believe that God may save black individuals, also believe that those same individuals are too simple minded to fully understand and comprehend complex doctrine and are therefore unfit for any type of Christian leadership. It is the responsibility of Caucasians to shepherd them.

I'm astounded that no one else has encountered this. Perhaps its my rural upbringing?

 

[Notthemama1984]

No white Christian would ever question the genuineness of another Christian just on the basis of his skin colour.

This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.

Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?

Unfortunately yes, I have heard deacons in a church question the salvation of the black church down the street. His reasoning was because, "all blacks do is hoop and holler, they don't preach the Word." When in reality the black pastor was probably the most knowledgeable person about the Bible in town. The deacon was making the statement based purly upon his racist beliefs.

 

[SemperEruditio]

I brought this issue up before. What I have come to conclude based on my experiences is that God is actively opening the eyes Black/Brown people to the DoG. We then join the Reformed church and then look around after the honeymoon period and realize we're the only "ones" around...then we get on our soapbox about where are the brothers at? I did and so did a few of the guys I've spoken with.

This is the thing, most people are scared regardless of what color they are. In the US there is so much emphasis placed on race that our Anglo brothers are afraid to say the wrong thing, or have what they say get misconstrued, and their trepidation appears as though they are inhospitable. Those of us, Black/Brown, have the burden to approach our Anglo brothers and sisters. In the safe confines of the church or our/their homes we can then show each other we have little to fear and through fellowship we can help each other communicate and reach out to the lost regardless of color.

There will be a disproportionate low number of Black/Brown pastors in Reformed denominations but that coincides with the low numbers of the same group who attend university. It is even lower for Latinos. So the only thing I see is that we will primarily be RE's for the next decade. As those of us who are Black/Brown speak to and help our White brothers/sisters to speak to more people of color and they help us, we can all from there encourage all our young men to stay in school and then they will be better prepared to attend seminary. There are many Presbyteries which have the LAMP program which I think is helping in this regard.

Yes I see the lack of "color" in some of the Reformed churches I have visited. Again I also see that it is those of us who are Black/Brown who need to be proactive in seeking to fellowship with our Anglo brothers. I'm not saying Anglos do not need to seek to fellowship with us but I think it is disingenuous to come into predominantly Anglo denominations and then have a problem that they are predominantly Anglo.

Listen, I am not the most approachable guy because of my "look." I look intimidating. I was recently asked by HR to stand-in a meeting with an employee who was threatening others in order to intimidate him with my presence. This is something the Lord has brought to my attention and I am praying and working to correct. I am actively working in being a people-person because I do not want to be "that" guy and repel other races because of a "look."

I've had some not so nice experiences with a few of our Anglo brothers/sisters as recent as the GA in Orlando. It happens. Doesn't make it right but we have not been called to match hate or fear with hate or fear. The longer I'm in the PCA the more proud I am of its heritage to including the ugly times in its history.

 

[charliejunfan]

I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?

Welllllll, I think it depends on where a person grew up and in what kind of "church" setting, for instance, if a person is used to pentecostal type worship(and lets be honest and admit that most people in the world are used to this shallowness) they will most likely have a fit that the worship music is reverent and simple. I don't buy AT ALL the whole "continued diversity" thing just because of Revelation 5:9 and the out of every tongue, nation, tribe part. It seems very obvious to me at least that throughout scripture God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". Me being an Exclusive Psalm singer makes how I look at the issue differ as well, for example, should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? NO, they should not! Should they adopt Japanese hymns? NO, they should not! However, a Psalms only singing church can adapt to culture to a certain extent in the melodies used along with the Psalms, and should they do that? Sure.
So I don't think that Psalms/noninstrument only churches should adopt certain "worship" practices from each culture, rather it should conform to scripture and the unity/conformity therein.
I have attended a PCA and I think they should be more diverse if they really are free to sing anything within certain guiding principles, they should have Negro Spirituals and all that stuff, but I don't think it'll happen in most cases because of the focus on reverence, people who grew up around pentecostal type worship will most of the time denounce a more simple/reverent worship style. This is why whether a PCA, OPC, or RPCNA I think we as Reformed must show the world just how important proper, biblical worship is, It is a VERY serious thing which takes alot of sacrifice and study to accept!!! I say out with the "seeker friendly" churches and in with the churches who will stop at nothing to show the world the reverence and seriousness in WORSHIP of God.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

This is unfortunately not true. Racism, as much as we might despise it, is alive and well in the church.

Can you think of an example of a situation that is like that? A christian denying that someone could be a christian because of their race?

I could give you numerous anecdotes from my own experience, but I won't bore you with the particulars. Suffice it to say that I have run into numerous Christians who tie unbelief or paganism to a particular "race" or culture and say that it is God's judgment on those people. (Usually, they use the term race, but really they're speaking of a culture). Generally the verse I've heard used is the one about God visiting judgment on the descendants of those who hate him.

And then there are the legions of individuals who, while they believe that God may save black individuals, also believe that those same individuals are too simple minded to fully understand and comprehend complex doctrine and are therefore unfit for any type of Christian leadership. It is the responsibility of Caucasians to shepherd them.

I'm astounded that no one else has encountered this. Perhaps its my rural upbringing?

No, you're not the only one. I encountered it all the time in the South. I don't think there is overt racism in the church, but there is a good deal of subtle racism.

Interestingly, even in an extremely diverse population like New York, Redeemer is about 45% White (the exact proportion of Whites in NYC), 40% Asian, and the remainder are mostly Black with a very few Hispanics. All the pastoral staff are White or Asian. I think it's stylistic more than anything else, but I would like to see more Blacks and Hispanics in our congregation...

 

[Andres]

I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?

Welllllll, I think it depends on where a person grew up and in what kind of "church" setting, for instance, if a person is used to pentecostal type worship(and lets be honest and admit that most people in the world are used to this shallowness) they will most likely have a fit that the worship music is reverent and simple. I don't buy AT ALL the whole "continued diversity" thing just because of Revelation 5:9 and the out of every tongue, nation, tribe part. It seems very obvious to me at least that throughout scripture God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". Me being an Exclusive Psalm singer makes how I look at the issue differ as well, for example, should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? NO, they should not! Should they adopt Japanese hymns? NO, they should not! However, a Psalms only singing church can adapt to culture to a certain extent in the melodies used along with the Psalms, and should they do that? Sure.
So I don't think that Psalms/noninstrument only churches should adopt certain "worship" practices from each culture, rather it should conform to scripture and the unity/conformity therein.
I have attended a PCA and I think they should be more diverse if they really are free to sing anything within certain guiding principles, they should have Negro Spirituals and all that stuff, but I don't think it'll happen in most cases because of the focus on reverence, people who grew up around pentecostal type worship will most of the time denounce a more simple/reverent worship style. This is why whether a PCA, OPC, or RPCNA I think we as Reformed must show the world just how important proper, biblical worship is, It is a VERY serious thing which takes alot of sacrifice and study to accept!!! I say out with the "seeker friendly" churches and in with the churches who will stop at nothing to show the world the reverence and seriousness in WORSHIP of God.

Brother, I am not sure if you wrote this post in haste or perhaps I read it in haste, but some of your comments seem particularly ignorant.
You say, "God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". For the sake of clarification we are not talking about diversity in worship styles here. While we may not all be EP, I believe the majority of us on this board hold to RPW.
You seem to be basing cultural diversity solely on the type of worship a church holds. Are you saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and Asians can't understand RPW? No one ever asked any church to adpot negroe spirituals so why would you make the connection that this is what would be needed to draw in African-Americans? I personally find these sentiments offensive.

 

[charliejunfan]

I am going to be completely honest with my brothers and sisters here and I trust that what I am trying to convey is not misconstrued in any way, but that my true heart’s feelings would come out. The biggest issue I have presently with the Presbyterian Church is that I feel like it is predominantly a white denomination. I realize that this a blanket statement and I also want to make it 100% clear that 1) I have never witnessed any type of racism at all from any of my Presbyterian brothers/sisters 2) I do not believe that the leadership of the Presbyterian churches wish it to be this way (mostly white). I am basing this statement purely on what I have witnessed firsthand. For example, at my church aside from myself (my wife is white) there is one other couple there that is of Filipino descent. We have approximately 15 families that are white. Now I also want to be known that unless I relocate to another city, I have absolutely no plans to leave my local church because it is solidly biblical and reformed and this is what I desire above all else. That brings me to the video.
First, thanks for sharing the clip. I found it to be very spot on in that I fully believe God’s universal church is completely diverse, so why don’t local congregations reflect this? Some of the commentators touched on attempting to answer this, but I just don’t think those could or should be valid reasons, especially not in reformed churches. For example, in reformed churches do we not set aside our personal “preferences” for music, preaching, etc and instead we allow God’s Word to conform us to what the standard should be for worship/preaching? So am I completely incorrect? Are there Presbyterian churches here in the U.S. that are even 40% African-American? Am I just missing something? Also, it seems to me there is a shortage of Hispanic and African-American pastors in American Presbyterian congregations. Am I incorrect in this belief also? I hope no one takes this as my soapbox, because it’s really not. Again, I just want my church to be biblical and confessionally reformed but am I wrong to want it to be diverse too?

Welllllll, I think it depends on where a person grew up and in what kind of "church" setting, for instance, if a person is used to pentecostal type worship(and lets be honest and admit that most people in the world are used to this shallowness) they will most likely have a fit that the worship music is reverent and simple. I don't buy AT ALL the whole "continued diversity" thing just because of Revelation 5:9 and the out of every tongue, nation, tribe part. It seems very obvious to me at least that throughout scripture God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". Me being an Exclusive Psalm singer makes how I look at the issue differ as well, for example, should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? NO, they should not! Should they adopt Japanese hymns? NO, they should not! However, a Psalms only singing church can adapt to culture to a certain extent in the melodies used along with the Psalms, and should they do that? Sure.
So I don't think that Psalms/noninstrument only churches should adopt certain "worship" practices from each culture, rather it should conform to scripture and the unity/conformity therein.
I have attended a PCA and I think they should be more diverse if they really are free to sing anything within certain guiding principles, they should have Negro Spirituals and all that stuff, but I don't think it'll happen in most cases because of the focus on reverence, people who grew up around pentecostal type worship will most of the time denounce a more simple/reverent worship style. This is why whether a PCA, OPC, or RPCNA I think we as Reformed must show the world just how important proper, biblical worship is, It is a VERY serious thing which takes alot of sacrifice and study to accept!!! I say out with the "seeker friendly" churches and in with the churches who will stop at nothing to show the world the reverence and seriousness in WORSHIP of God.

Brother, I am not sure if you wrote this post in haste or perhaps I read it in haste, but some of your comments seem particularly ignorant.
You say, "God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". For the sake of clarification we are not talking about diversity in worship styles here. While we may not all be EP, I believe the majority of us on this board hold to RPW.
You seem to be basing cultural diversity solely on the type of worship a church holds. Are you saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and Asians can't understand RPW? No one ever asked any church to adpot negroe spirituals so why would you make the connection that this is what would be needed to draw in African-Americans? I personally find these sentiments offensive.

Sorry that you are offended brother, I know this thread isn't about adapting to other worship styles and I guess I quoted you only to try and give the reason I think there is a shortage of other races in Reformed churches. I guess all I should say is that I think it definitely IS a matter of music Worship style and since it is I think that we Reformed have to be stronger in convincing the shallow evangelicals of our rich and biblical worship heritage.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Again sorry I offended you, I hope I made sufficient clarification brotha

 

[Andres]

Welllllll, I think it depends on where a person grew up and in what kind of "church" setting, for instance, if a person is used to pentecostal type worship(and lets be honest and admit that most people in the world are used to this shallowness) they will most likely have a fit that the worship music is reverent and simple. I don't buy AT ALL the whole "continued diversity" thing just because of Revelation 5:9 and the out of every tongue, nation, tribe part. It seems very obvious to me at least that throughout scripture God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". Me being an Exclusive Psalm singer makes how I look at the issue differ as well, for example, should the Exclusive Psalm singing churches adopt so called Negro Spirituals as their worship? NO, they should not! Should they adopt Japanese hymns? NO, they should not! However, a Psalms only singing church can adapt to culture to a certain extent in the melodies used along with the Psalms, and should they do that? Sure.
So I don't think that Psalms/noninstrument only churches should adopt certain "worship" practices from each culture, rather it should conform to scripture and the unity/conformity therein.
I have attended a PCA and I think they should be more diverse if they really are free to sing anything within certain guiding principles, they should have Negro Spirituals and all that stuff, but I don't think it'll happen in most cases because of the focus on reverence, people who grew up around pentecostal type worship will most of the time denounce a more simple/reverent worship style. This is why whether a PCA, OPC, or RPCNA I think we as Reformed must show the world just how important proper, biblical worship is, It is a VERY serious thing which takes alot of sacrifice and study to accept!!! I say out with the "seeker friendly" churches and in with the churches who will stop at nothing to show the world the reverence and seriousness in WORSHIP of God.

Brother, I am not sure if you wrote this post in haste or perhaps I read it in haste, but some of your comments seem particularly ignorant.
You say, "God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". For the sake of clarification we are not talking about diversity in worship styles here. While we may not all be EP, I believe the majority of us on this board hold to RPW.
You seem to be basing cultural diversity solely on the type of worship a church holds. Are you saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and Asians can't understand RPW? No one ever asked any church to adpot negroe spirituals so why would you make the connection that this is what would be needed to draw in African-Americans? I personally find these sentiments offensive.

Sorry that you are offended brother, I know this thread isn't about adapting to other worship styles and I guess I quoted you only to try and give the reason I think there is a shortage of other races in Reformed churches. I guess all I should say is that I think it definitely IS a matter of music Worship style and since it is I think that we Reformed have to be stronger in convincing the shallow evangelicals of our rich and biblical worship heritage.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Again sorry I offended you, I hope I made sufficient clarification brotha

Sorry for rehashing, but I don't want to make any assumptions about what you are getting at. Just for my own clarification, you truly believe that the reason Presbyterian churches aren't racially/culturally diverse is because black/brown people don't like the RPW and "ordered" worship?

 

[steadfast7]

This is a topic that's close to my heart. I'm Korean-Chinese and would consider myself Reformed Baptist, but attend a Korean Presbyterian Church, as part of my Korean heritage and being a part of the immigrant population in Toronto where our circle of friends all grew up in the same church together.

If we're all frank about ourselves, we'll easily discover that we feel most comfortable with people who are most like us; who look like us, think like us, speak like us and worship like us. This is true of we fallen human beings in every sphere of life and church preferences is not any exception to that. This is one area in which we have brought our psychological makeup and culture into the church automatically without much consideration as to whether the gospel speaks to this and/or challenges it.

I believe the gospel does speak to racial and socio-economic segregation (whether intentional or not), in a profound way. It is far from God's ideal that our churches are 10 times more racially segregated than the neighbourhoods in which they find themselves (as the video reports). We have chosen to be comfortable and turn a blind eye to our weaknesses rather than aggressively seeking to live out the gospel in all its visible fullness.

I'm speaking from a highly diverse metropolitan context of Toronto, so granted, not all neighbourhoods have that kind of make-up and need not worry about having every tribe in their sanctuary on a Sunday morning. But that video and the testimony of that church is amazing and I believe that all who find that situation relevant to their context should pray that our churches can look more like that.

 

[Jake]

It bothers me that whenever I am with others, whether it be a small group of friends, a classroom, large environment, etc. the only time it is all one race is at church. In my area there is more than half white, but there is a good amount of diversity as well.

However, I feel like a lot of our ministries are those that would only reach out to other people like us. Our biggest outreach ministry is probably our recreation program. Considering how much that costs for the participants, it is only going to attract the more wealthy. We do have a clothes closet, but we never actually bring people into the church through that somehow.

 

[VilnaGaon]

Brother, I am not sure if you wrote this post in haste or perhaps I read it in haste, but some of your comments seem particularly ignorant.
You say, "God wants conformity and unity, NOT "diversity". For the sake of clarification we are not talking about diversity in worship styles here. While we may not all be EP, I believe the majority of us on this board hold to RPW.
You seem to be basing cultural diversity solely on the type of worship a church holds. Are you saying that African-Americans, Hispanics, and Asians can't understand RPW? No one ever asked any church to adpot negroe spirituals so why would you make the connection that this is what would be needed to draw in African-Americans? I personally find these sentiments offensive.

Sorry that you are offended brother, I know this thread isn't about adapting to other worship styles and I guess I quoted you only to try and give the reason I think there is a shortage of other races in Reformed churches. I guess all I should say is that I think it definitely IS a matter of music Worship style and since it is I think that we Reformed have to be stronger in convincing the shallow evangelicals of our rich and biblical worship heritage.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Again sorry I offended you, I hope I made sufficient clarification brotha

Sorry for rehashing, but I don't want to make any assumptions about what you are getting at. Just for my own clarification, you truly believe that the reason Presbyterian churches aren't racially/culturally diverse is because black/brown people don't like the RPW and "ordered" worship?

I mean no offence ---- but most Black, East Indian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic and even Portugese and Italians do not generally like the RPW and ordered worship. I know this because many of them tell me so. For that matter white teenagers and white people in their 20s do not like it either. The reasons are cultural not racial.