National Super-Sabbath Breaking Sunday?

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Yes: From the conclusion of the introduction,
"This leads to the question of whether Calvin's theology is not really non-sabbatarian, or his pratice is not, in fact, sabbatarian. To answer the question we look first at his practice, then at two key points in his Sabbath theology, the question of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and Calvin's view of the change of the day observed from Saturday to Sunday." p. 4
And from the Summary and Conclusion of the article,
"If categorized in terms of the Sabbath debate that was to take place over the century following his death, Calvin's theology must be grouped with the sabbatarians. His doctrine of the Sabbath essentially meets Primus' standard, the 'two cardinal principles of Sabbatarian theology' Namely, for Calvin, like the Puritans, (1) 'the Sabbath command is rooted in the Creation order and is therefore moral and universal in scope,' and (2) 'the first day of the week and no other is especially sanctified by God as the Sabbath." p. 14.
Does he have info which states that Calvin believed that the Sabbath was changed from Sat to Sun?
 
The Commandment and Westminster standards are clear enough, aren't they? We abstain from shopping, too on the Lord's Day.

By the way, on the subject of TV, why not just cancel your cable subscription? When I returned from a year in Iraq, my wife and I decided we could live quite nicely without TV. The characters on far too many programs are coarse and licentious; furthermore, (real) life is simply too good to waste in front of the idiot box. And, you may find time to take a walk with you kids; give up the idol of professional sports viewing; and even read a good book or two. (When's the last time you enjoyed Tolstoy, Calvin, or Robert Bork?)

P.S. And tomorrow is NOT Superbowl Sunday as I saw on a PCA congregation's website . See you at morning and evening service.
 
Yes: From the conclusion of the introduction,
"This leads to the question of whether Calvin's theology is not really non-sabbatarian, or his pratice is not, in fact, sabbatarian. To answer the question we look first at his practice, then at two key points in his Sabbath theology, the question of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and Calvin's view of the change of the day observed from Saturday to Sunday." p. 4
And from the Summary and Conclusion of the article,
"If categorized in terms of the Sabbath debate that was to take place over the century following his death, Calvin's theology must be grouped with the sabbatarians. His doctrine of the Sabbath essentially meets Primus' standard, the 'two cardinal principles of Sabbatarian theology' Namely, for Calvin, like the Puritans, (1) 'the Sabbath command is rooted in the Creation order and is therefore moral and universal in scope,' and (2) 'the first day of the week and no other is especially sanctified by God as the Sabbath." p. 14.
Does he have info which states that Calvin believed that the Sabbath was changed from Sat to Sun?

Not to be argumentative but that isn't a statement from Calvin saying that the Sabbath was changed to Sun. Calvin denies this in his institutes. He believed that we should gather on Sunday because it was the day that everyone had picked to come together to devote to God and it establishes order. I would need a statement from Calvin explaining why God changed the Sabbath from Sat to Sun in order to be convinced that he believed this. Sort of like how Edwards made a statement as to why he feels God changed the Sabbath from Sat to Sun.
 
See the article.
Yes: From the conclusion of the introduction,
"This leads to the question of whether Calvin's theology is not really non-sabbatarian, or his pratice is not, in fact, sabbatarian. To answer the question we look first at his practice, then at two key points in his Sabbath theology, the question of the Sabbath as a creation ordinance and Calvin's view of the change of the day observed from Saturday to Sunday." p. 4
And from the Summary and Conclusion of the article,
"If categorized in terms of the Sabbath debate that was to take place over the century following his death, Calvin's theology must be grouped with the sabbatarians. His doctrine of the Sabbath essentially meets Primus' standard, the 'two cardinal principles of Sabbatarian theology' Namely, for Calvin, like the Puritans, (1) 'the Sabbath command is rooted in the Creation order and is therefore moral and universal in scope,' and (2) 'the first day of the week and no other is especially sanctified by God as the Sabbath." p. 14.
Does he have info which states that Calvin believed that the Sabbath was changed from Sat to Sun?

Not to be argumentative but that isn't a statement from Calvin saying that the Sabbath was changed to Sun. Calvin denies this in his institutes. He believed that we should gather on Sunday because it was the day that everyone had picked to come together to devote to God and it establishes order. I would need a statement from Calvin explaining why God changed the Sabbath from Sat to Sun in order to be convinced that he believed this. Sort of like how Edwards made a statement as to why he feels God changed the Sabbath from Sat to Sun.
 
Little story from a long time resident of West MI:

"A city official driving me around when folks had TV antenna's on the roof, pointing to a home, would say it had a "Dutch antenna." What? "Their antenna is in the attic so neighbors won't know they're watching TV on Sunday."

Until recently, some restaurants could not sell alcoholic beverages with dinner on Sundays. A liquor store owner told me those favoring the ban stocked up, and on Sundays, drank in their basements."

In other words, people say one thing and do another. And people remember hypocrites. For a long long time. The LDS were stellar at leading a double life on Sundays (they were sabbatarians BTW). Unless one is going to act as the Netherlands Reformed elders do and go looking for a TV or satellite dish in every home of every covenant family one has NO control over what actually will occur tomorrow. Or on any given Sunday. The ultimate decision is up to the individual family to decide how to handle their day of rest. :2cents:
 
The Superbowl starts at 6 pm in Tampa ... sunset is at 6:09 pm in Tampa .. so if one measures the Sabbath sunset Saturday to sunset Sunday ... then the Superbowl may actually occur not on the Sabbath because kickoff is usually delayed.

Do you consistently refrain from non-Lord's Day activities from sundown every Saturday?

The paid professionals you are watching did not wait until sunset to begin their Sabbath breaking, nor all the stadium workers, fans and media people. Are you deriving your enjoyment from their sin?
 
Do you consistently refrain from non-Lord's Day activities from sundown every Saturday?

No, do you? I've had to labor every Lord's Day for 30 years. My point about the sundown issue is, if we are going to apply the law, let us be specific about when it applies. If the strict observance of the Sabbath is to be observed, I think it is important to know when it is to be observed.
 
I don't know whether to :lol: or :( at this all too typical example of how churches split. Some measure of both is probably appropriate.

As I said, I used to be a deacon in the Seventh Day Baptist church. A great bunch of people who are dear to my heart.

The SDBs settled the town I used to live in. I looked into the history and found out that there was once another SDB church on the other side of town and I couldn't understand why the folks didn't meet in the middle. There was only two miles between the churches.

It turned out that there was a great split 100 years ago. The church on the west side it turned out were a bunch of libertines. They were the flagrant wretches who came to the conclusion that one could play croquet on the Sabbath. So Milton, Wisconsin was split into the croquet players and the abstainers.
 
Unless one is going to act as the Netherlands Reformed elders do and go looking for a TV or satellite dish in every home of every covenant family one has NO control over what actually will occur tomorrow. Or on any given Sunday. The ultimate decision is up to the individual family to decide how to handle their day of rest. :2cents:

How about starting with Presbyterian and Reformed church officers publicly saying and practicing what their confessional standards say, without contradiction or reservation.
 
Time for a time out; say till Monday morning.

-----Added 2/2/2009 at 03:55:22 EST-----

Thread reopened. N.B. This is a Confessional board. The governing standard, Westminster, is clearly Sabbatarian. We allow discussion of the doctrine, but we don't allow trashing the confessional position (see Rich's post on the RPW which is appropriate in this instance as well). Feel free to ask questions and raise objections. However, non-Sabbatarians should accept that Sabbatarians will think something is Sabbath-breaking and a violation of the fourth commandment, and therefore a sin by consequence. On the other side, it would do well for Sabbatarians on the board to be winsome in their argumentation for the Confessional position. Now, as with any thread and topic, if anyone gets ugly or personal don't return in kind but either ignore it or if egregious, make use of the report a post feature to bring it to the moderator's attention. Thanks. Carry on, winsomely.
 
I just think, with regard to the comment on the satellite dish in the attic type thing in the NGK churches, it is very simple: if you want to play in this sandbox, here are our 'distinctives' and that's how we play in this sandbox. If you don't like that, play in a different one.
 
Brian: Couldn't the same be said about holding to the teachings of Calvin or Edwards or even the Confessions? I don't want to be mean but God put godly men with wisdom to help us.

Maybe i could have elaborated a bit more. I think the original post that i was referencing
I just get my info on this from R.C. Sproul.
reminded me of a lot of Christians that i would run into.

I tend to notice if a person continuously quotes a person more often then scripture. I have seen it on message boards and even real life. A lot of popular preachers sometimes get held to a level of infallibility.

I guess its one thing to reference an individual on a topic and discuss the many thoughts pertaining to one topic. Kind of like when writing a paper and you use a multitude of sources. But its another to refer back to a same individual on a multitude of topics throughout the Christian life.

Perhaps it was unfair of me to jump out and post so quickly with a lack of knowledge....this is one of those situations where the internet is a difficult medium of communication. It might have been a joke or sarcastic but sometimes those things dont come through and if i missed that i apologize.

I wouldnt consider the referencing the confessions to be close to referencing a person. Its a bit hard for me to explain this morning so perhaps i will edit this and elaborate after work!

I hope this makes more sense. Sometimes i have a hard time explaining my thoughts
 
Do you consistently refrain from non-Lord's Day activities from sundown every Saturday?

No, do you? I've had to labor every Lord's Day for 30 years. My point about the sundown issue is, if we are going to apply the law, let us be specific about when it applies. If the strict observance of the Sabbath is to be observed, I think it is important to know when it is to be observed.

Midnight to midnight, first day of the week.

My point, if one has a different definition of the Sabbath, at least be consistent in that definition. If your objection is an honest one as to the time the Sabbath begins and ends, sundown to sundown, don't be out late celebrating Saturday night. Don't change from week to week to suit whatever recreation is available. Let those claiming another time or day be consistent in their observation.

You know works of necessity and mercy are permitted. Public worship is commanded by God. Those things making this worship possible are necessary and merciful. So, if one needs to shovel snow or plow the parking lot to make entry possible for public worship on the Lord’s Day, it is the Lord’s work.

It is really a matter of whether the Fourth Commandment is abrogated or not.

Matthew 5:19a-
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven...."

The misunderstanding of confessional Lord’s Day observance in this thread demonstrates the importance of discussing it. I understand this makes some uncomfortable, but the excuses for not considering what was believed and taught by the Puritans, Westminster Presbyterians, and London Confession Baptists doesn’t wash:

1) What day? When does it start?
2) What about works of necessity and mercy?
3) But this is recreation, not work.
4) I took an exception.
5) I hold the continental view.

None of these are sufficient reason for justifying participation in or watching professional or organized sports on the Lord’s Day, at least for an officer in a denomination where one’s ordination vows required subscription to the Westminster Standards.

I don’t mean to be harsh, judgmental, or close off discussion. For too many years, I had a deficient understanding of these matters myself. In spite of some effort to keep the Lord’s Day holy, one of the things I regret most is my not consistently communicating to my children (all adults now) the full confessional view of this issue. This is one matter to which our American Evangelical culture blinds us. Yet, this may also be one way in which Christians can set themselves apart from the culture and provide a witness to our society.

Better to think of the Lord’s Day as an opportunity rather than as a list of restrictions. It is a gift of God’s grace for the nourishment of our souls, not a legalistic ordeal. What are all the means of grace given by God for the spiritual good of ourselves and others– public, family and private worship, reading of scripture, prayer, fellowship, time with family, shared meals, hospitality to strangers and sojourners (visitors at church), rest, time or discuss sermons, church history, theology, devotional subjects, works of mercy? In our crowded, complicated and confusing lives, one day in seven is given for our resting in the Lord, Christ’s finished work, and enjoyment of his graciousness without competition with other concerns.

The Lord’s Day should not be about legalism. The needs of children must be considered, though they should be taught the specialness of the day from an early age. Their attention span and ability should be considered. Enjoyment of God’s creation with a walk in the park may be for their spiritual good. Special videos dealing with nature or certain aspects of history may be God glorifying. A video about the history of Christianity is little different from reading a book, and may be more helpful to those who can’t read. Parents might reserve appropriate games just for Lord's Day enjoyment. Children will spontaneously play; so their throwing a football or frisbee, even with their parents, is different than playing or watching organized sports, amateur or professional.

We don’t earn salvation; it is bought with the perfect and completed obedience and sacrifice of Christ. We break the Sabbath and worship imperfectly in thought, word and deed every Lord’s Day. Unless even unintentional sins are covered by Christ’s redeeming blood, we deserve eternal torment in hell. It is not with self-righteous legalism or perfectionism we approach Lord’s Day observance. It is with a sense of our inadequacy and inability to do ourselves any spiritual good, resting in the God’s saving work in Jesus Christ alone.

One can not justify the national obsession among Christians celebrating millionaire’s at work breaking the Sabbath, punctuated with the world marketing their wares with high priced though entertaining commercials, and the network making huge profits from wide-scale disobedience of God's commandment.

This is no way to use “the market day of the soul” of which the Puritans spoke. People who don’t like the biblical Lord’s Day will not like heaven.

Few things would mark a Christian as set apart from the world more than faithful Lord’s Day oobservance. Yet, we who call Christ “Lord,” meaning “master,” “owner,” “absolute ruler,” find it inconvenient to abstain from the general preoccupation with mass marketed sin.
 
This is no way to use “the market day of the soul” of which the Puritans spoke. People who don’t like the biblical Lord’s Day will not like heaven.

This is so true. We keep the Lord's day/Sabbath as an "earnest penny" toward that glorious final Sabbath rest with Christ in eternity. If you don't call the Sabbath a delight then pray earnestly the God would make you a fit vessel for his glory.
 
Better to think of the Lord’s Day as an opportunity rather than as a list of restrictions. It is a gift of God’s grace for the nourishment of our souls, not a legalistic ordeal. What are all the means of grace given by God for the spiritual good of ourselves and others– public, family and private worship, reading of scripture, prayer, fellowship, time with family, shared meals, hospitality to strangers and sojourners (visitors at church), rest, time or discuss sermons, church history, theology, devotional subjects, works of mercy? In our crowded, complicated and confusing lives, one day in seven is given for our resting in the Lord, Christ’s finished work, and enjoyment of his graciousness without competition with other concerns.

The Lord’s Day should not be about legalism. The needs of children must be considered, though they should be taught the specialness of the day from an early age. Their attention span and ability should be considered. Enjoyment of God’s creation with a walk in the park may be for their spiritual good. Special videos dealing with nature or certain aspects of history may be God glorifying. A video about the history of Christianity is little different from reading a book, and may be more helpful to those who can’t read. Parents might reserve appropriate games just for Lord's Day enjoyment. Children will spontaneously play; so their throwing a football or frisbee, even with their parents, is different than playing or watching organized sports, amateur or professional.

I couldn't agree with these paragraphs more, Pastor Ferrell. Unfortunately, I believe they undermine your view that watching the Super Bowl is in itself sinful.

I consider myself a Sabbatarian, and fully subscribe to the keeping of the 4th Commandment as written in the WCF. But ultimately, no matter how we slice it, the particulars of Sabbath-keeping (or Lord's Day keeping) are a matter of conscience. How we define "work" and "recreation" are inherently variable. Plenty of people would consider throwing a Frisbee with children an unlawful recreation. Some people consider working in an electric plant or operating public transportation unnecessary work. We like to think the orthodox Jews who ride the "Sabbath elevators" are silly and adding unnecessary restrictions to the Sabbath, but are elevators really necessary? Aren't they simply trying to obey the Law to the fullest? If we try to draw an absolute line for work, recreation, necessity, and mercy we will start down a road that ultimately and without exception leads to legalism.

The point is that while we should set aside all wordly employments and recreations on the Lord's Day, the extent, duration, and particulars are not enumerated specifically in the Bible, and thus we cannot judge certain activities other than the general way they are given to us in Scripture. If a man works at his business all Lord's Day while not spending any time in the Word or in corporate worship it is clear he is sinning. Likewise, a woman who watches football all day, even if she worships first, is also sinning. But for someone who spends the day in the Word and in worship and decides to play a game or watch the Super Bowl in the evening, can we really say that is sinful? Perhaps for some it is a violation of their conscience, and that's understandable. But for others it is not, and Romans 14 along with Colossians 2:16-17 both the condemn the kind of legalism you would condemn regarding the Sabbath, Pastor Ferrell.

So I appreciate those who do not watch the Super Bowl, and respect what God was put on your conscience. But there's scant Scriptural proof to call those of us who watch the Super Bowl "Sabbath-breakers" or "sinful." I think it's important to remember that we should endeavor to follow the Law in its fullest, but also be mindful that Jesus and the Apostles all have far more warnings against legalism than they do against antinomianism when it comes to the Lord's Day.
 
How many people missed Lord's Day worship for the Super Bowl? Is recreation a work of mercy or necessity? Does Professional Football=bringing your ox out of a ditch?
 
How many people missed Lord's Day worship for the Super Bowl? Is recreation a work of mercy or necessity? Does Professional Football=bringing your ox out of a ditch?

I suspect that the number is very low, if you limit it to the question of missing worship. It seems the broader issue is what one does with the rest of the Lord's Day outside of corporate gathering.

The only reason I don't have anything to say on the Super Bowl aspect of the discussion is that I actually didn't even know it was on until the PB told me, and we have never had a TV anyway. So it would be hard for me to weigh in on something so remote.
 
The paid professionals you are watching did not wait until sunset to begin their Sabbath breaking, nor all the stadium workers, fans and media people. Are you deriving your enjoyment from their sin?

I'm just guessing here, but I think you have greatly incriminated yourself with that reasoning. Do you know how many of the things you use and enjoy come at the price of people breaking the Sabbath? Reading a book, watching a movie, eating a hamburger, wearing a pair of shoes, drinking a glass of wine, and sleeping on a bed. You are doing those things because somebody at some point did something other than worshipping God on Sunday.
 
Better to think of the Lord’s Day as an opportunity rather than as a list of restrictions. It is a gift of God’s grace for the nourishment of our souls, not a legalistic ordeal. What are all the means of grace given by God for the spiritual good of ourselves and others– public, family and private worship, reading of scripture, prayer, fellowship, time with family, shared meals, hospitality to strangers and sojourners (visitors at church), rest, time or discuss sermons, church history, theology, devotional subjects, works of mercy? In our crowded, complicated and confusing lives, one day in seven is given for our resting in the Lord, Christ’s finished work, and enjoyment of his graciousness without competition with other concerns.

The Lord’s Day should not be about legalism. The needs of children must be considered, though they should be taught the specialness of the day from an early age. Their attention span and ability should be considered. Enjoyment of God’s creation with a walk in the park may be for their spiritual good. Special videos dealing with nature or certain aspects of history may be God glorifying. A video about the history of Christianity is little different from reading a book, and may be more helpful to those who can’t read. Parents might reserve appropriate games just for Lord's Day enjoyment. Children will spontaneously play; so their throwing a football or frisbee, even with their parents, is different than playing or watching organized sports, amateur or professional.

I couldn't agree with these paragraphs more, Pastor Ferrell. Unfortunately, I believe they undermine your view that watching the Super Bowl is in itself sinful.


We might differ on whether children spontaneously throwing a ball on the Lord’s Day is a violation of the commandment. I know some of my Highland and Island Scottish friends would find such offensive. Let them correct and instruct their children as they will, and instruct me if I’m wrong.

However, there is no doubt the business of professional sports or endorsing such by our watching is a clear violation of that commandment as applied in the Westminster Standards. Thus, officers having taken vows of subscription to those standards should refrain from publicly teaching otherwise until their denomination amends them or provides an authoritative interpretation to the contrary.

The paid professionals you are watching did not wait until sunset to begin their Sabbath breaking, nor all the stadium workers, fans and media people. Are you deriving your enjoyment from their sin?

I'm just guessing here, but I think you have greatly incriminated yourself with that reasoning. Do you know how many of the things you use and enjoy come at the price of people breaking the Sabbath? Reading a book, watching a movie, eating a hamburger, wearing a pair of shoes, drinking a glass of wine, and sleeping on a bed. You are doing those things because somebody at some point did something other than worshipping God on Sunday.

Perhaps Paul’s words apply:

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. [1 Cor. 10:27]​

I have no responsibility for or control over an unbeliever or antinomian Christian slaughtering a steer on the Lord’s Day, part of which might end up as a roast on my Sabbath table, unless I purposely seek out a slaughter house and butcher shop which I know processed this beef on Sunday. One can claim no such ignorance or innocence concerning the Super Bowl and everything connected with it.

The confessions did not leave such matters to the individual conscience. Neither should the church adhering to those standards. We either understand, believe, practice and enforce the standards of our constitutions or we’re on the same road of confessional indifference which gave us the PCUSA and RCA. It is a matter of honesty.
 
The 1644 left it alone. It IS a confession.
I am not sure I understand the comment but the subject of the differences between the 1644 and 1689 LBCFs has been covered in several threads before (search [SIZE=-1]london baptist 1644 sabbath).
This writer states the following (reformed baptists here on PB can opine in more detail):
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Both the 1644/46 and the 1677/89 Confessions, as understood by their original authors, teach covenant theology, the abiding validity of the law of God and, by implication, the obligation of the 1st day Sabbath
 
Thanks for the article link and search suggestion. I took you up on both. Renihan is enlightening. I appreciate his understanding of history.
The statement prior to mine was "The confessions did not leave such matters to the individual conscience." My statement wasn't much of a point, other than the fact that it wasn't addressed in the 1644. Whether it's implied contextually, historically, implicitly or explicitly or not is not the issue. It is not stated. That's all I was pointing out. Even if the writers adhered to a 1st day Sabbath, it was not stated in the document. If one adheres to the 1644 (a document, not Scripture) they do not have to address this issue, for the document does not. One, strictly speaking, does not have to adhere to strict sabbatarianism in order to adhere to the 1644.
 
I posted this in the other thread about the Sabbath but i think it's more relevant to this thread.

Before coming to know the Lord there was something in my life that took up much of my time, Glasgow Rangers football club. Now they play in the Scottish premier league. The league struck a deal with television companies that most (99%) of live games would be shown on the Sabbath. Not a problem to me at the time.

I then came to know Jesus as my Lord and saviour which led me to reassess all aspects of my life, I stopped my habitual weekend binges on alcohol, I stopped smoking and I immediately stopped watching the live games. The Sabbath day became a delight to me, For six days I laboured in the world and on the Lords day I rested, read scripture, attended the means of grace and did not conform to the world.

What of Glasgow Rangers you may ask?
I will still watch a game if they are on midweek provided I am not missing prayer meeting or any form of worship. I am continually reminded that the club was an Idol to me, I wore the shirt, sang the songs and spent lots of money on it.

I just wonder about the Christian who will not give the Sabbath to the Lord, Is it your Idol keeping you from doing so?

There are many idols in many guises, let us pray one with another that we are not deceived into thinking it is ok when quite clearly God says it is not.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I do not say this as an argument brothers and sisters but as a plea for us to "be not conformed to this world" Romans 12:2
 
However, there is no doubt the business of professional sports or endorsing such by our watching is a clear violation of that commandment as applied in the Westminster Standards. Thus, officers having taken vows of subscription to those standards should refrain from publicly teaching otherwise until their denomination amends them or provides an authoritative interpretation to the contrary.

I think the issue goes beyond the players in professional sports "working" on Sunday. There are many others behind the scenes who are also working on Sunday to bring the game into our living rooms. So it is not just the "Stupid Bowl." Many of these behind the scenes guys are also there working even if there isn't a game to bring you the Sunday Night Movie or this or that drama or comedy, or whatever.
 
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This is no way to use “the market day of the soul” of which the Puritans spoke. People who don’t like the biblical Lord’s Day will not like heaven.

This is so true. We keep the Lord's day/Sabbath as an "earnest penny" toward that glorious final Sabbath rest with Christ in eternity. If you don't call the Sabbath a delight then pray earnestly the God would make you a fit vessel for his glory.

People who do not like to honor their mothers and fathers would not like Heaven, nor would people who look at p0rnography, or people who commit any other sin. I disagree. I think in Heaven, when the work which has begun is complete, we will all love to be in heaven. Not because we are used to not sinning, but because we will be fully sanctified.
Your understanding of the Sabbath has come to you by God's grace. As such, I don't think there's any room for statements like those above, where you suggest that other people who have different understandings of God's word, would not like Heaven and need to pray to be better fit! We all need to pray for that, none of us are fit to enjoy heaven or be His glory.
 
Why not support your local high school or college team (Friday and Saturday games)?
 
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