Q. on interracial marriages

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[quote:54faf5b069][i:54faf5b069]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:54faf5b069]
[b:54faf5b069]Good post Seth[/b:54faf5b069]

We should always aim to think biblically.

Someone stated that there would be problems involved in dealing with the spouse's parents.

My response: This is true if the in-laws are racists.

Someone stated that the mixed kids would be made fun of.

My response: This will be true of all children. Kids are dumb.

.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by Ianterrell] [/quote:54faf5b069]

Ian,

Your post would be funny, if it weren't so true.
 
I am a racist....

Now that I have everyone's attention, I prefer my sons to marry a girl from a family we're in covenant with. I don't care what color skin or nationality. Oneness in Christ is all we're after.

We prefer the race of Christianity. If the girl's family is running the race we're running, she's the same race as we are.

Is that equivocation? :banana:

We have to be in covenant, though. That's what we're telling our boys.

In Christ,

KC
 
[quote:0ad5f4cc11][i:0ad5f4cc11]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:0ad5f4cc11]
Gregg what's the difference between favoring one "race" over another, and discrimination? [/quote:0ad5f4cc11]

Reply...

Favoring their own race (in your words) or preference( in my words)is simply choice based on their preference.

Discrimination is choice based on false sterotyping or unfair prejudice against a certain race (which is not the case here at all).
 
[quote:77fbfe9c91][i:77fbfe9c91]Originally posted by sastark[/i:77fbfe9c91]
God seperates all mankind into two groups: Elect and nonelect. ANY OTHER DISTICTION IS UNBIBLICAL. PERIOD...When I look at her, I do not see a Chilean woman. I see a Christian. When I look at my black Christian friends, I do not see blacks. I see Christians. When I look at my Asian Christian friends, I do not see Asians. I see Christians.[/quote:77fbfe9c91]

I disagree, Seth. The biblical answer to racism is [i:77fbfe9c91]not[/i:77fbfe9c91] to [i:77fbfe9c91]deny[/i:77fbfe9c91] the distinctions and differences - but to [i:77fbfe9c91]embrace[/i:77fbfe9c91] them! There [i:77fbfe9c91]are[/i:77fbfe9c91] significant differences God created the different races and ethnicities with, and He created those distinctions for His glory, otherwise He would not have created physiologically different races at all. You say, "If only we were all born color blind." I actually see this as a slap in God's face. We need to answer the world's sick racism, [i:77fbfe9c91]not[/i:77fbfe9c91] by [i:77fbfe9c91]denying[/i:77fbfe9c91] the significant differences and [i:77fbfe9c91]ceasing[/i:77fbfe9c91] to make distinctions, but by [i:77fbfe9c91]celebrating[/i:77fbfe9c91] those distinctions.

That being said, as to your original questions Janice, to #1 I would say that it is not sinful to want to marry someone within your own race , [i:77fbfe9c91]if[/i:77fbfe9c91] physical attraction is the only thing warranting that desire. If your reasoning goes beyond that, I would suspect that it probably has some subtle racist roots. As to question #2, I would actually say that yes, it is wrong for you to desire and hope that your children marry someone within their own ethnic group, since (as I said to question #1) physical attraction is the only justifiable cause I see for not wanting it, and physical attraction is one issue that (unlike, say, religion) is solely up to your kids, and does not play a part in your own approval of their spouse.

In Christ,
 
[quote:dd09dd80b7]
Someone stated that there would be problems involved in dealing with the spouse's parents.

My response: This is true if the in-laws are racists. [/quote:dd09dd80b7]

Actually there are many practical considerations that differ in each relationship and depending on the two cultures in question as to why an inter-ratial marriage causes more problems or difficulties.
(for instance my father-in-law who speaks no English is living with us and I speak no Chinese, my wife and I have different views on family responsability and independance and the managing of money that has cultural roots, etc) But although there are some considerations, and a person should know what they're getting themselves into, it doesn't seem logical to, from the outset , bar yourself from considering marriage with another culture because of these things unless you're actually in the circumstance and can see that the difficulties you will face in the relationship because of the cultural difficulties are insurmountable.
But not wanting inter-ratial marriage for fear of the children's looks ....yeesh, I don't know what to say without sounding like a jerk...


[quote:dd09dd80b7]
I disagree, Seth. The biblical answer to racism is not to deny the distinctions and differences - but to embrace them!
[/quote:dd09dd80b7]

Yes! wonderfully said.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by bockman]
 
[quote:544a459101][i:544a459101]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:544a459101]
I disagree, Seth. The biblical answer to racism is [i:544a459101]not[/i:544a459101] to [i:544a459101]deny[/i:544a459101] the distinctions and differences - but to [i:544a459101]embrace[/i:544a459101] them! There [i:544a459101]are[/i:544a459101] significant differences God created the different races and ethnicities with, and He created those distinctions for His glory, otherwise He would not have created physiologically different races at all. You say, "If only we were all born color blind." I actually see this as a slap in God's face. We need to answer the world's sick racism, [i:544a459101]not[/i:544a459101] by [i:544a459101]denying[/i:544a459101] the significant differences and [i:544a459101]ceasing[/i:544a459101] to make distinctions, but by [i:544a459101]celebrating[/i:544a459101] those distinctions.
[/quote:544a459101]

Chris,

If you want to embrace cultural differences, fine. I love learning about new cultures. But, culture and race are [b:544a459101]two different issues[/b:544a459101]. I can be as white as a ghost and not have any sense of European and/or American Culture. My brother is currently living in Osaka, Japan. He has embraced Japanese culture. He is white. His plan is to live in Japan for the rest of his life. 50 years from now, will he be white or will he be Japanese? I say the later. He may have European/American DNA, but he will be more Japanese than American.

So, when some one asks, Is it wrong to want to marry some one in my own race? My answer is yes! Especially in America where there are so many christians of different races! True, there are cultural differences here in the US between black, white, asian, hipanic, eastern european (which we have a lot of in Sacramento), american indian, etc. But if we are all Christians, then there is neither Jew nor Greek. Marrying into a Christian Culture is what we ought to be concerned with. Not the color of our spouse's skin.


I also see the beauty in God's creation of different skin colors ("By God's design, we are a skin kalidescope"). We shouldn't ignore God's beautiful creation. We should learn to love it. I'm wondering if I am the one slapping God in the face, or if the person unwilling and unable to love a black man is the one slapping God in the face?
 
[quote:cf89702a05][i:cf89702a05]Originally posted by bockman[/i:cf89702a05]
[quote:cf89702a05]
Someone stated that there would be problems involved in dealing with the spouse's parents.

My response: This is true if the in-laws are racists. [/quote:cf89702a05]

Actually there are many practical considerations that differ in each relationship and depending on the two cultures in question as to why an inter-ratial marriage causes more problems or difficulties.
(for instance my father-in-law who speaks no English is living with us and I speak no Chinese, my wife and I have different views on family responsability and independance and the managing of money that has cultural roots, etc) But although there are some considerations, and a person should know what they're getting themselves into, it doesn't seem logical to, from the outset , bar yourself from considering marriage with another culture because of these things unless you're actually in the circumstance and can see that the difficulties you will face in the relationship because of the cultural difficulties are insurmountable.
But not wanting inter-ratial marriage for fear of the children's looks ....yeesh, I don't know what to say without sounding like a jerk... [/quote:cf89702a05]

Darren good point. I was being over-simplistic. There are things to seriously consider like language barriers. But when we are speaking of Americanized ethnic groups were there are no such language/cultural barriers why should there be a preference that is clearly only superficial! The question Janice posed was essentially about appearances. I think that question is obviously just terrible to entertain. It's wrong to say to your kids don't marry kids who have curly hair, look for a kid with nice blue eyes etc. What scriptural grounds do we have for justifying ethnic preferences? No one's brought up a biblical support for such an idea yet.
 
Seth, it sounds like your brother is 'embracing differences'. It's very important to understand what makes people different and to appreciate these things. Not pretend they don't exsist for the sake of the current PC view of tollerance and equality.
 
[quote:26a46ecbba][i:26a46ecbba]Originally posted by lkjohnson[/i:26a46ecbba]
I live in a multi-ethnic world. My church is primarily Spanish-speaking, first-generation immigrants from Mexico with a few from Central America. There are also have some anglos and a couple of inter-racial marriages. (One is an Hispanic man married to a Japanese woman. When they married he spoke no Japanese, she spoke no Spanish, and neither spoke very much English. I do not know how they survived those early years.)

Based on that experience, let me share a couple of thoughts.

First, there is no biblical prohibition of inter-racial marriage as long as both are believers.

Second, while there is nothing wrong with inter-racial marriages, the couple must be prepared for an additional layer of difficulty in the marraged based on cultural differences. For example, one couple talks about how hard it was for the young lady at the first Christmas because she was used to turkey and dressing and his family ate traditional tamales and menudo, neither of which most Americans would find appealing. Think about the stress it places on a marriage when you go to your mother-in-law's house for the first Christmas and there is no running water, an outhouse for a toilet, a rope mattress, no Christmas tree, no elaborately wrapped gifts, and to top it all off, it's all you can do to sit at the table.

Furthermore, gender roles are very different in other cultures. Those from Hispanic, Middle Eastern, and Asian cultures have very different expectations. Even the old-fashioned American girl is more liberated than these cultures are comfortable with.

So, is it wrong? No. It is difficult, even risky? Absolutely. [/quote:26a46ecbba]


I think you are being stereotypical in your assumptions. is it possible? - yes... but i would not say it's an absolute... you are being too generic, i think...

my wife is from korea... her family is very accepting of me... they don't live in primitive huts... they have running water... they even own several automobiles... my family is equally accepting of her... i couldn't imagine finding another female on the face of the planet that is as wonderful as my wife...

i know so many same-race couples who have hard marriages, difficult times, etc... and i would wager that my marriage is much less "effort" than theirs...

i grew up in the south, in/near racist communities, so i have the authority to say this... i think some of you have some prejudices or some kind of pride motivating your opinions in this case... i don't mean this in a judgemental way, but i think some of your arguments are straw-man args... such as being the butt end of jokes...

anyway, that's my two-cents, my soapbox, and my can of worms...

love in Christ!
ace
 
Let me elaborate a little on the difference between race and culture.

In America we have people of African descent. They do not eat the same food as Africans in Africa. They do not dance the same dances. They do not speak the same languages.

I am of German ancestry. I do not speak German. I am not Lutheran. I do not eat German food. I do not know a sinlge German folkloric song or dance. I do not worship Odin.

Racially, I am European. Culturally I am Christian first, American second.

Racially, Blacks are African. Culturally, those who are saved are Christian first, American second.

So, is it wrong to discriminate against some one solely on the basis of the color of their skin? Yes! Because they are either Christians or not Christians. What other distinction is there to make when considering who to marry?

Are you worried about living with a slightly different culture? Do you really think there is some one out there 100% like you? Same habits? Same quirks? Same annoying tendecies? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. And you know the only way you can actually live with some one who [b:5e90dd134f]is[/b:5e90dd134f] that different from you? By daily showing Christ's love in your life. Without his love, we would never get along with any one, let alone a person we will have to spend the rest of our lives with.

Stop worrying about cultural differences. Love your neighbor. Are you treating your neighbor differently because of the color of his/her skin? Repent and love your neighbor.

"Beloved, let us love one another."
 
[quote:e87f9feb1c][i:e87f9feb1c]Originally posted by bockman[/i:e87f9feb1c]
Seth, it sounds like your brother is 'embracing differences'. It's very important to understand what makes people different and to appreciate these things. Not pretend they don't exsist for the sake of the current PC view of tollerance and equality. [/quote:e87f9feb1c]

Darren,

I'm not sure if you meant that my view is politically correct or not. Let me assure you, it isn't. Why? Because I believe Christians should marry only Christians. I do discriminate. Just not on the basis of race.

As Christians we ought to "tolerate" other races. More than that, we ought to love them! The question was originally concerning marriage. It is wrong to determine who you will marry on the basis of race. And, in a Christian's eyes, we should not discriminate on the basis of race. Either in marriage, in friendship, in evangelism, ever. Skin color really does not matter for the Christian.

"There is niether Jew nor Greek" - What does that mean?
 
Hi Seth, I was speaking generally and actually wasn't quite sure of what you were saying. All of us are influenced somehow or other by PC ideas these days, but I'd imagine this board if any should be a respite from many popularly held worldy views which is really nice.

Some say 'embrace differences', others 'theres no differences'...probably just speaking past eachother because of the nuances of our intent.
 
[quote:13f161576e][i:13f161576e]Originally posted by sastark[/i:13f161576e]
So, when some one asks, Is it wrong to want to marry some one in my own race? My answer is yes! Especially in America where there are so many christians of different races! True, there are cultural differences here in the US between black, white, asian, hipanic, eastern european (which we have a lot of in Sacramento), american indian, etc. But if we are all Christians, then there is neither Jew nor Greek. Marrying into a Christian Culture is what we ought to be concerned with. Not the color of our spouse's skin.[/quote:13f161576e]

Would you agree, however, that it [i:13f161576e]is[/i:13f161576e] justifiable to want to marry someone in your own race [i:13f161576e]if[/i:13f161576e] physical attraction is your only reason?

[quote:13f161576e][i:13f161576e]Originally posted by sastark[/i:13f161576e]
I also see the beauty in God's creation of different skin colors ("By God's design, we are a skin kalidescope"). We shouldn't ignore God's beautiful creation. We should learn to love it. I'm wondering if I am the one slapping God in the face, or if the person unwilling and unable to love a black man is the one slapping God in the face? [/quote:13f161576e]

I only viewed your comments as a slap in God's face when they seemed to be implying that we should ignore racial differences altogether (such as the "color blind" issue). But because of what you say above, I see that you did not mean that.

In Christ,
 
Last edited:
[quote:ac14076935][i:ac14076935]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:ac14076935]
Would you agree, however, that it [i:ac14076935]is[/i:ac14076935] justifiable to want to marry someone in your own race [i:ac14076935]if[/i:ac14076935] physical attraction is your only reason?
[/quote:ac14076935]

You want my honest opinion? Read Proverbs 31:30 - [i:ac14076935]"Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised."[/i:ac14076935]

If beauty is really that big of a deal for you (and I say this lovingly, not condesendingly), you need to mature a little. Get past it. A God fearing woman's worth is far above rubies (Prov. 31:10).

Sure, every guy wants a super-model wife. But is it right to want that? Do we really have our priorities straight? Not according to God's Word.

[quote:ac14076935]
I only viewed your comments as a slap in God's face when they seemed to be implying that we should ignore racial differences altogether (such as the "color blind" issue). But because of what you say above, I see that you did not mean that.

In Christ, [/quote:ac14076935]

Cool. :handshake:

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by sastark]
 
[quote:f0bfde1b37][i:f0bfde1b37]Originally posted by bockman[/i:f0bfde1b37]
Some say 'embrace differences', others 'theres no differences'...probably just speaking past eachother because of the nuances of our intent. [/quote:f0bfde1b37]

I suspect as much.

:handshake:
 
[quote:074df13629][i:074df13629]Originally posted by sastark[/i:074df13629]
You want my honest opinion? Read Proverbs 31:30 - [i:074df13629]"Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised."[/i:074df13629][/quote:074df13629]

Of course beauty is passing - just like food, wine, humor, etc. But does that mean we should ignore such things, and never aim to enjoy them? Certainly not. It is passing, but God nonetheless created it for His glory - and the language of Song of Solomon, though metaphorical for Christ and the Church, clearly shows that. So while it should not be given too high a priority--just as good food should not, lest we become gluttonous idolators--it is to be enjoyed in its proper place to God's glory.

[quote:074df13629][i:074df13629]Originally posted by sastark[/i:074df13629]
If beauty is really that big of a deal for you (and I say this lovingly, not condesendingly), you need to mature a little. Get past it. A God fearing woman's worth is far above rubies (Prov. 31:10).

Sure, every guy wants a super-model wife. But is it right to want that? Do we really have our priorities straight? Not according to God's Word.[/quote:074df13629]

I never said it was a [i:074df13629]big[/i:074df13629] deal for me, or that it is comparatively high on my list of priorities in a wife. I simply said it is [i:074df13629]one[/i:074df13629] of the factors to rightly be considered - otherwise God would not have created it. Does putting too much weight on it offset our biblical priorities? Absolutely. But does putting [i:074df13629]some[/i:074df13629] value on it offset our biblical priorities? I hardly think so.

BTW, if you want to keep discussing this (which I welcome), either U2U me or start a new thread, since we don't want to get off topic too much in this thread.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by Me Died Blue]
 
Chris,

I think we pretty much agree. I see nothing wrong with marrying a beautiful wife (mine is!), as long as that is not our #1 priority.

Does that sound agreeable?
 
Definitely. And the reason I mentioned it in the first place when talking about the sinfulness of specifically wanting to be married to someone of the same race was because if beauty was the [i:549fb7df0c]only[/i:549fb7df0c] difference between two women of different race who equally feared God, I would then and only then see skin color as a justifiable thing to decide on. But really, that's more of a hypothetical musing for the sake of making a theoretical point anyway, since such a situation could hardly ever occur in real life, wherein [i:549fb7df0c]all[/i:549fb7df0c] other factors were the same. So heck, since it could never really even apply, maybe I shouldn't have used it as a theoretical example in the first place. In any case, it seems that we're agreed.
 
OK, I have thought and thought about this, and as much as I don't want to ask this question (because if I am bad at ONE more thing today...)

However, I can't stop thinking about it, so here goes: (disclaimer: theological pygmy speaking)

If God is sovereign in ALL areas of our lives,
and God IS color-blind,
what does MY racial preference have to do with anything?

What I mean is: if God wants me to marry a black man,
who am I to say no? Unless we're saying that God has no control over our love lives...are we?
 
[quote:c308455d71][i:c308455d71]Originally posted by joshua[/i:c308455d71]
[quote:c308455d71][i:c308455d71]Originally posted by ace[/i:c308455d71]
i know so many same-race couples who have hard marriages, difficult times, etc... and i would wager that my marriage is much less "effort" than theirs...

i grew up in the south, in/near racist communities, so i have the authority to say this... i think some of you have some prejudices or some kind of pride motivating your opinions in this case... i don't mean this in a judgemental way, but i think some of your arguments are straw-man args... such as being the butt end of jokes...

anyway, that's my two-cents, my soapbox, and my can of worms...

love in Christ!
ace [/quote:c308455d71]

I think you're a hater! :P [/quote:c308455d71]


hey, you're the one who lived in Fouke! hahaha



[Edited on 6-8-2004 by ace]
 
[quote:4d240e211b]
If God is sovereign in ALL areas of our lives,
and God IS color-blind,
what does MY racial preference have to do with anything?
[/quote:4d240e211b]

a pygmy eh?...neat-o, I'm a midget!

I don't know that God is colour blind. He put the colour there in the first place. But I know what you mean...

I don't know if it makes sense but God's sovereignty does not negate who we are, and His sovereignty is manifest in who we are. So if God wants you to marry someone of another ethnicity, either you wouldnt be saying no, or circumstance would work in a fashion that you found yourself strangely attracted to someone you hadnt' considered before. In either case it's not something I'd worry about. It's like those who say if Gods in control of bringing His own to Christ then why do we need to evangelize?
 
Isn't it included in Ham's lecture that we weren't "created" with different skin color, but rather "adapted" to it? I know in the book "One Blood" by Ham he addresses it.

As Americans, we have been trained that it is skin color that is to be sorted into segments of society. But in other countries, skin color is generally not the issue. This same discussion could be had in other parts of the world (non english speaking) and we could be talking about the size of a persons feet, or the width of their hips (thank GOODNESS that's not the case, here) or the color of their eyes. America has done two things that are so very shameful in regards to discrimination. You need to be of a certain color and you need to be a 7 or better on the "thin and pretty" scale. Racism is taught, it is not natural.

As far as cultural differences go, I might as well have married someone from a different country. We are a happily married couple, now...but it took the first 7 or 8 years of our marriage to figure that out. He is from the smallest town in the Ozarks and I'm from a large city. The differences when we go back to his home town are HUGE! We both find it hard to adapt to the "Women cook, men eat" mentality. The first time his family saw him change a diaper, they all about had heart attacks, and then were so ashamed. That's not man's work! HA!

Does it matter what color the skin is? I say no. In fact, how would a blind person ever know unless someone told them.
 
[quote:a82e1f1656][i:a82e1f1656]Originally posted by joshua[/i:a82e1f1656]
[quote:a82e1f1656][i:a82e1f1656]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:a82e1f1656]
Someone stated that the mixed kids would be made fun of.

My response: This will be true of all children. Kids are dumb.

[/quote:a82e1f1656]

I'm ashamed for laughing at this! ha! [/quote:a82e1f1656]

That's fine. I thought it was kind of funny too. Funny hoho, not funny haha.
 
[quote:faaf2eb046]
He is from the smallest town in the Ozarks and I'm from a large city.
[/quote:faaf2eb046]

That has the makings of a great telivision sit-com...you should pitch it to NBC.

...wait, I think there already was one...
 
I think the idea of cultural prejudice towards inter-racial couples is really overrated - and I live in the South!

I have known/been around couples of all sorts of different racial mixtures and have not noticed any sort of apparent prejudice towards them in public. Moreover, I have personally been in several inter-racial relationships and have noticed nothing more offense than maybe an older person doing a quick doble-take.


I have a Daughter and a Son, and I would gladly have them marry a person of ANY race, so long as they are a Godly man/woman. I don't care if my daughter/son marries a black, white, yellow, green or purple person - so long as he/she fits (or is aspiring to fit) the criteria outlined in Scripture for a Christian husband/wife.

In my opinion, a racial preference is a superficial one.
"I want my husband/wife to be tall/short/muscular/slender/dark or fair haired... etc."

If you have a preference towards an ideal, that is perfectly fine. Growing up, I always desired a dark featured gypsy-type woman. I ended up marrying a fair-haired, blue-eyed woman of Scandinavian descent.

Preference is fine, prejudice is sinful.
 
*bump*

I've read through people's comments (from a long while ago), but wonder if anyone has any comments more specifically related to the kids of interracial marriages. Especially in a black/white marriage. Do you think that is hard on the kids in some way? And if so, should that be any reason to not be in favor of such a marriage?
 
Covenant Joel said:
*bump*

I've read through people's comments (from a long while ago), but wonder if anyone has any comments more specifically related to the kids of interracial marriages. Especially in a black/white marriage. Do you think that is hard on the kids in some way? And if so, should that be any reason to not be in favor of such a marriage?
Click to expand...

I would refer you back to Ian Terrel's post above. Kids will be made fun of no matter what. You must teach them how to act Christ-like in the face of affliction, no matter what form it takes. And there is no such thing as inter-racial marriage. The pigment of your skin should never matter. If your potential partner is godly, that is all that is required. If the world is racist, then it is their loss. We must show them that Christ has broken down those walls of division.
 
Puritan Sailor said:
I would refer you back to Ian Terrel's post above. Kids will be made fun of no matter what. You must teach them how to act Christ-like in the face of affliction, no matter what form it takes. And there is no such thing as inter-racial marriage. The pigment of your skin should never matter. If your potential partner is godly, that is all that is required. If the world is racist, then it is their loss. We must show them that Christ has broken down those walls of division.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thoughts. It seems to me that the way this is handled is with a healthy emphasis on the church as the community of God's people and teaching children (of any ethnic descent) to find their identity in the people of God, as that is who they are in Christ. I found a great article by Piper on the subject. His position is that interracial marriage should be embraced, not just "allowed," a position that seems to have a great deal of weight to me.
 
I like to use the term people groups instead of race, since ever since darwin, it carries the connotation of some "races" are higher evolved than others. The only "races" that the Bible describes are believers and unbelievers, so the only race believers should marry are the race of unbelievers.

BTY, I am Scotch Irish and I married a Korean woman, and I don't think my bias gets in the way of my exegesis on this point.
 
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