Sabbath-breaking

[just_grace]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by just_grace
You do not have to keep it and thats that...read the Bible people, how long will you prolong this insult to God's Grace in Christ. Off to eat a pork pie.

I suggest you step back from this discussion for a while, brother. Harsh words stir up anger.

Don't let your anger lead you into sin brother...

Calvin stood up to what he believed and he upset a lot of people, I do the same, I stand for the gospel, I am not ashamed of it.

David,
Do you not believe Calvin kept the Lords day holy and rested accordingly from his labor??

What on earth does that have to do with what Scripture teaches Scott?

David

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by just_grace]

The scriptures teach to keep the sabbath. You mentioned Calvin, as if he taught not to keep the sabbath.

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Not what I had in mind, just the fact that he stood up to what he saw was wrong, like Luther. I have the right to do so to.

 

[just_grace]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
"There is nothing which the Lord enjoins more strictly
than the religious observance of his Sabbath, in other words resting from our works; but in nothing
do we show greater reluctance than to renounce our own works,."

Calvin's Institutes

Then why try to keep 'one point' of the Law?

Who said we only should try to keep one point? As of recent, I have been trainning myself to be grieved over my chronic assault of the 1st commandment.

Exactly, we cannot keep the law, hence Grace. We uphold it yes, but do not live by it, we should be in the Spirit now. Surely!

 

[Peter]

David, you have some really unscriptural notions of the Law. No one here is suggesting that in keeping the Sabbath we aim to save ourselves, which is what the scriptures you keep citing are condemning. However, as the RP testimony aptly puts it, keeping the law, albeit imperfectly, is the proper expression of thankfulness and love for Christ saving us.

WCF: XIX:VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by just_grace
You do not have to keep it and thats that...read the Bible people, how long will you prolong this insult to God's Grace in Christ. Off to eat a pork pie.

I suggest you step back from this discussion for a while, brother. Harsh words stir up anger.

Don't let your anger lead you into sin brother...

Calvin stood up to what he believed and he upset a lot of people, I do the same, I stand for the gospel, I am not ashamed of it.

David,
Do you not believe Calvin kept the Lords day holy and rested accordingly from his labor??

What on earth does that have to do with what Scripture teaches Scott?

David

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by just_grace]

The scriptures teach to keep the sabbath. You mentioned Calvin, as if he taught not to keep the sabbath.

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Not what I had in mind, just the fact that he stood up to what he saw was wrong, like Luther. I have the right to do so to.

David,
You do! However, support your premise. The only people whom hold your idea are the antinomians. Gods law is eternal.

 

[just_grace]

...

Christians meet on the Lord's day to worship the Living and Risen Christ, not keep the Sabbath.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
"There is nothing which the Lord enjoins more strictly
than the religious observance of his Sabbath, in other words resting from our works; but in nothing
do we show greater reluctance than to renounce our own works,."

Calvin's Institutes

Then why try to keep 'one point' of the Law?

Who said we only should try to keep one point? As of recent, I have been trainning myself to be grieved over my chronic assault of the 1st commandment.

Exactly, we cannot keep the law, hence Grace. We uphold it yes, but do not live by it, we should be in the Spirit now. Surely!

Just because we fail in kjeeping Gods law does not free us from being bound to it, to keep it. Grace covers, yes. However, that does not remove our responsibility.

 

[just_grace]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Originally posted by just_grace
You do not have to keep it and thats that...read the Bible people, how long will you prolong this insult to God's Grace in Christ. Off to eat a pork pie.

I suggest you step back from this discussion for a while, brother. Harsh words stir up anger.

Don't let your anger lead you into sin brother...

Calvin stood up to what he believed and he upset a lot of people, I do the same, I stand for the gospel, I am not ashamed of it.

David,
Do you not believe Calvin kept the Lords day holy and rested accordingly from his labor??

What on earth does that have to do with what Scripture teaches Scott?

David

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by just_grace]

The scriptures teach to keep the sabbath. You mentioned Calvin, as if he taught not to keep the sabbath.

[Edited on 8-28-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Not what I had in mind, just the fact that he stood up to what he saw was wrong, like Luther. I have the right to do so to.

David,
You do! However, support your premise. The only people whom hold your idea are the antinomians. Gods law is eternal.

Ok, I have to learn more, I agree, but Paul was basically accused of such.

Studying Pauls works at the moment.

 

[just_grace]

Originally posted by Peter
David, you have some really unscriptural notions of the Law. No one here is suggesting that in keeping the Sabbath we aim to save ourselves, which is what the scriptures you keep citing are condemning. However, as the RP testimony aptly puts it, keeping the law, albeit imperfectly, is the proper expression of thankfulness and love for Christ saving us.

WCF: XIX:VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

What unscriptual notions of the law? It was done away with in Christ.
We are to live by the Spirit now not by a written code. Do you have the Spirit of Christ within you? Test yourselves and see. Thats what Paul taught.

 

[Peter]

Read what I said, read the Confession. The Law was done away with in what sense? What is the Law?

 

[just_grace]

...

Originally posted by Peter
Read what I said, read the Confession. The Law was done away with in what sense? What is the Law?

Do I put the confession before the Word of God?

 

[Peter]

No. But do you want to understand the word of God? If so I suggest you read it. The divines which wrote it were much smarter and gifted much more with the Holy Spirit then you or I.

 

[crhoades]

Originally posted by just_grace
What unscriptual notions of the law? It was done away with in Christ.
We are to live by the Spirit now not by a written code. Do you have the Spirit of Christ within you? Test yourselves and see. Thats what Paul taught.

Matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[just_grace]

Question...

Originally posted by Peter
Read what I said, read the Confession. The Law was done away with in what sense? What is the Law?

I think you spend too much time in the OT and not enough in the NT.

 

[Peter]

What is the Law?

ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Peter
Read what I said, read the Confession. The Law was done away with in what sense? What is the Law?

I think you spend too much time in the OT and not enough in the NT.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[just_grace]

Originally posted by crhoades

Originally posted by just_grace
What unscriptual notions of the law? It was done away with in Christ.
We are to live by the Spirit now not by a written code. Do you have the Spirit of Christ within you? Test yourselves and see. Thats what Paul taught.

Matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

You forgot the Scripture that says Christ is the end of the law for those who believe...

Also His commandment was to love one another as I have loved you.

Did you read that Galatians book you just sent me?

David

 

[crhoades]

This might be time for a good disctinction...The normative perspective of ethics regards the law. It has not changed.

What is being discussed here is the motivation to keep the law. Gratitude and a proper sense of the fear of the Lord. We are called to be holy as He is holy. What better sets out what is holiness than the law of God?

We are not discussing Justfication but rather sanctification and we can all say with Paul that the good works were prepared beforehand for us to walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[just_grace]

Corrupting the Gospel...

I believe that this stance on keeping the Sabbath is wrong in the light of the gospel and until I see otherwise I will oppose it.

 

[just_grace]

Originally posted by crhoades
This might be time for a good disctinction...The normative perspective of ethics regards the law. It has not changed.

What is being discussed here is the motivation to keep the law. Gratitude and a proper sense of the fear of the Lord. We are called to be holy as He is holy. What better sets out what is holiness than the law of God?

We are not discussing Justfication but rather sanctification and we can all say with Paul that the good works were prepared beforehand for us to walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So how much more of the law do you keep in reverence for God then?



[Edited on 8-29-2005 by just_grace]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Peter
David, you have some really unscriptural notions of the Law. No one here is suggesting that in keeping the Sabbath we aim to save ourselves, which is what the scriptures you keep citing are condemning. However, as the RP testimony aptly puts it, keeping the law, albeit imperfectly, is the proper expression of thankfulness and love for Christ saving us.

WCF: XIX:VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

What unscriptual notions of the law? It was done away with in Christ.
We are to live by the Spirit now not by a written code. Do you have the Spirit of Christ within you? Test yourselves and see. Thats what Paul taught.

David,
Think this through..........

It was done away with......."

What was done away with?

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;

Psa 119:1 Aleph. Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the LORD!

Isa 5:24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[SRoper]

I have to echo Gabe and Josh. I have only been observing the sabbath for a few months, and it has been quite liberating, actually.

Anyway, I have a question about practical sabbath-keeping. Just today one of my friends told me that I helped convince her that it was improper to work on Sunday. I was very glad to hear it, but then she asked me what positive things I do on the sabbath. I explained that I spend most of the day reading, and I also spend some time in prayer. This is fine for me, but I wish I had a richer picture of how to make good use of the sabbath. We are both single, so common illustrations of leading one's children in worship aren't very helpful.

 

[just_grace]

The bit...

Sorry, chomped at the bit tonight.

Signing off, not good to argue too much.

zzzzzzzz bed time.

David

 

[crhoades]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by crhoades
This might be time for a good disctinction...The normative perspective of ethics regards the law. It has not changed.

What is being discussed here is the motivation to keep the law. Gratitude and a proper sense of the fear of the Lord. We are called to be holy as He is holy. What better sets out what is holiness than the law of God?

We are not discussing Justfication but rather sanctification and we can all say with Paul that the good works were prepared beforehand for us to walk in them.

Philippians 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

So how much more of the law do you keep in reverence for God then?



[Edited on 8-29-2005 by just_grace]

I wish the amount of the law I kept and the amount of it that I should keep were the same. The amount of law that a Christian should keep should be the same amount that we are called to keep. Do we keep cermonial laws today? Sacrifices and the like? Do we keep the moral law? Yes, I do my best not to murder anyone today. I just wish I didn't get angry at my wife occasionally etc. Judicials...whole nuther thread...

We should keep the laws today that Israel of old were to keep unless they have been abrogated by God through the writings of Scripture.

The question could be precised and be asked-
1. Do you not want to observe the Sabbath because you view it as a ceremonial law and having been abrogated? If so then someone will bring it up as a creation ordinance and also that it has moral aspects to it...(not to mention Judicials...)
2. Or do you not observe the Sabbath because it is a law. Does that mean that you don't observe any of the laws of God?

I'm really trying to understand you. Do you advocate a Marcionite view of snipping out Moses and the law out of your Bible completely because Christ has come? If not...then how do you view the law?

 

[SRoper]

Thank you Laura, your suggestions are helpful. I already do some of those things. Visiting shut-ins is an idea I have heard elsewhere, and I'm interested in how that is done. It definitely seems like something singles could be specially called to as we don't have competing family obligations.

I admit I am still reforming in the music category. Do you have any suggestions as to which JSB CD would be a good introduction?

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by just_grace
What unscriptual notions of the law? It was done away with in Christ.
We are to live by the Spirit now not by a written code. Do you have the Spirit of Christ within you? Test yourselves and see. Thats what Paul taught.

Respectfully, you are wrong.

In living the Christian life before God, then, it is essential that we be people of the Word of God written. We cannot take it into our own hands to draw the blueprints for Christian ethics; instead of seeking to establish our own righteous pattern of life we must submit to God's (cf. Rom 10:3). In this present day there is a grave heresy which has permeated large areas of the Christian Church; it claims that the Christian life of victory is produced solely by an inward guidance of the Holy Spirit. In matters of Christian ethics, whether it be in reference to how to love one's neighbor or to deciding if any particular activity is wrong, many Christians claim that for moral authority they depend only upon the guidance of the Spirit. Whichever way the Spirit "moves" them is the way which they trust to be right. Now even the most elementary biblical doctrine should dissuade these subjective moralists, for who among sinfully depraved men can trust his inner inclinations? On such a basis as has been described how could one possibly test the spirits to see if they be from God or Beelzebub? Does such a way of life affirm the sufficiency of God's canonical Word? Does Scripture describe the work of the Spirit as that of mystical guidance? All these questions are fundamental and to be answered negatively. An amazing irony is to be found in the fact that many such "Spiritualistic" groups boast in being preachers of God's Word and adament opposers of modernism while, in point of fact, they have a great deal in common with liberal theology as regards ethics; the post-Kantian theologian is ear-marked by his making religious experience, not the revealed word, his authority (this is variously labeled as insight, piety, intuition, practical reason, mystical rapport, valuation, spiritual vitality, guiding light, etc.)."
Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen, Theonomy in Christian Ethics, pp. 169-70.

Westminster Confession of Faith. CHAPTER I. Of the holy Scripture.
I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation; therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.

X. The Supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decress of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.

* * *

CHAPTER XIX. Of the Law of God.
V. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

Belgic Confession of Faith. Article 7: The Sufficiency of Scripture.
We believe that this Holy Scripture contains the will of God completely and that everything one must believe to be saved is sufficiently taught in it. For since the entire manner of service which God requires of us is described in it at great length, no one-- even an apostle or an angel from heaven, as Paul says ought to teach other than what the Holy Scriptures have already taught us. For since it is forbidden to add to or subtract from the Word of God, this plainly demonstrates that the teaching is perfect and complete in all respects.

Article 25: The Fulfillment of the Law
We believe that the ceremonies and symbols of the law have ended with the coming of Christ, and that all foreshadowings have come to an end, so that the use of them ought to be abolished among Christians. Yet the truth and substance of these things remain for us in Jesus Christ, in whom they have been fulfilled.

Nevertheless, we continue to use the witnesses drawn from the law and prophets to confirm us in the gospel and to regulate our lives with full integrity for the glory of God, according to his will.

Freedom from the Law in Christ
What is our "freedom in Christ?" Many of us have likely heard a preacher or someone else say that, under the gospel, we are no longer obligated to obey God's law, but are to "live by the Spirit." In other words, God has annulled the law (speaking of the moral law along with the other aspects of the Levitical order in this context) with the establishment of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we use our own personal discernment to know how we are to live to the Lord, in Christ. We "walk according to the Spirit" and avoid any semblances of legalism or legalistic thinking. However, Scripture is adamently opposed to this libertarian line of thought.

First of all, if we are to "walk according to the Spirit" and not according to God's law, there is an obvious logical contradiction taking place. God's Spirit wrote the Law, along with the rest of Holy Scripture. God's Spirit cannot be at enmity with Himself. God's Word does not change. His will does not waver with the passing of time. It is completely illogical to say that we must walk only according to God's Spirit, unless we concede that this is, in its very essence, saying nothing but "walk according to Scripture." If this is the case, as logic and Scripture require, it is clear that God's Law is authortative in some manner if so established in Scripture. Only when God has instructed us so in His Word can we know for sure that something fundamental in our beliefs has changed. Such is the case with how God's Law applies and is binding in the lives of believers today.

We can know for certain that the moral laws of the Old Testament have certainly not been annulled quite easily. For starters, consider these words of Christ in the Gospel According to Matthew, Chapter 5:

"œDo not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:17-20 ESV)

Christ tells us that He has not come to "abolish the Law or the Prophets," but to "fulfill them." One could stop right here and judge, "You see, it mentions both the Law and the Prophets, so He couldn't possibly be speaking about the moral obligations on people within the Laws of Moses, just the actual promises and prophecies contained within them." However, this hasty conclusion is refuted soon after. Jesus clarifies for us that "not an iota, not a dot" will pass away from "the Law" until all is accomplished. Until how much is accomplished, Lord? All. Furthermore, Christ mentions the fact that we must not, nor teach others, to relax "one of the least of these commandments." Those who know it is our Christian duty to seek obedience to all of God's commandments (those put forth in the Old Testament, as "the Law and the Prophets" is an obvious reference to) are to be considered the "greatest in the kingdom." So then, it is clear we have a Christian obligation to obey God's laws and live our lives in a pursuit of such end.

If this were not already enough Scriptural evidence for the objectors, we have further indications in the New Testament that God's law is to be the standard for living. The concept is quite simple, actually. Paul writes in his epistle to the Romans,

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(Romans 8:29 ESV)

Paul explains that a natural result of one's election to salvation is the process of sanctification; that is, being "conformed to the image of his Son." In other words, we are saved and set apart as the body of Christ, to be differentiated from the rest of the world in a marked and measurable way. We do this through conforming our image to that of Christ's. How can we resemble Christ? How did Christ live? What was the measure of His perfect righteousness, by which we are justified? The Law of course. Christ "fulfilled the law" and all righteousness so that we can be justified before God on judgment day. Of course, our simple obedience of God's Law does not justify us any "more" than we are already justified. This is a one-time, all encompassing act that can neither be damaged nor improved upon. However, loving obedience to God's Law is the means by which we are sanctified and set apart from the rest of the world as believers. It is all too clear for us in God's Word.

Many evangelicals today will talk about how we are not "under the law" but "under grace." However, without knowing what Paul is referring to when he says this in Romans 6, we can get ourselves in a lot of trouble, theologically and practically speaking. The Holy Spirit writes,

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
(Romans 6:12-19 ESV)

Scripture defines itself here, if we will take the time to read and interpret it in context. How are we no longer "under law?" We are no longer "under law" when "sin [has] no dominion over you." In other words, if we are truly in Christ Jesus, sin should no longer be the master of our lives. It is no longer our "inner being," as we are now, at the core, "holy." Paul confirms this in the very next chapter, saying,

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
(Romans 7:22-25 ESV)

In the "inner being" of a believer, we delight in God's law. Yet, sin can prevent us from submitting to what we know we should be doing. Thankfully, as Paul expresses for us, we have been delivered from this inherent and inescapable servitude through our justification in Jesus Christ our Lord. With God's Holy Spirit resting in our hearts, we are given the ability to not only love God's law, but to obey God's law. On top of all this, even when we fail (as we all do) to follow God's requirements of us, we still have Christ as our surety who has suffered in our stead; that is, if we are truly regenerate and in Christ.

Going back to chapter 6 again, we must note the importance of the contrast Paul makes. While it is true that we are "set free" from the curse of sin and the law, we are still to be slaves to obedience; that is, obedience to God's law. And, as established earlier, we see that the end of our slavery to obedience is our sanctification:

For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
(Romans 6:19b ESV)

It is important also to note that the emphasis of this obedience to God rests not on the human who is obedient, but on God who makes this obedience possible.

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
(Romans 6:17-18 ESV)

We are obedient "from the heart." God, when saving sinners, gives them a new heart that has been sprinkled with clean water and made possible to delight in and submit to His laws (Ezk 36:25; Heb 10:22). Our hearts are obedient to "the standard of teaching to which [we were] committed." We are not committed to some kind of subjective, existential obedience, totally devoid of regulation and any sense of standard. We are committed to obey God's statutes and rules, and a regenerate heart delights in these things, despite the influence of sin that lingers in our spiritual lives.

So then, what does Scripture speak of when we read we are "free in Christ" and no longer "under the law?"

To begin with, we are free from the curse of the law. No longer are believers to be concerned with the wrath and damnation that we are all born into, in Adam (1 Cor 15:22). While we are all "by nature children of wrath" (Eph 2:3), those who are in Christ are secure in His death and resurrection and at peace with God (Rom 5:1). However, as Paul argues clearly, this is not a license to sin (6:15), but an obligation to obedience to God's Law (Rom 6:17-18).

Many passages of Scripture make this concept very clear to us if we would have eyes to see and ears to hear.

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 8:2 ESV)

God's Spirit which gives life, resting within the hearts of believers, has set us free in Christ Jesus from the curse of the law; that is, sin and death.

For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ.
(1 Corinthians 7:22 ESV)

We, although perhaps free people in a temporal/earthly sense, once called to salvation for God's purpose and glory, have been called to slavery; that is, slavery to Christ Jesus and to obey His commandments out of our love for Him and for God's people (Deut 11:13; Rom 8:4;13:8,10; Gal 5:14;6:2; Jas 2:8; 1 Jn 5:2).

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
(Galatians 5:1 ESV)

What "yoke of slavery" is Paul talking about here? It is not God's law, for God's law is "holy and righteous and good" (Rom 7:12), when we are in Christ, and led to a conviction of sin, abiding faith and true repentance, a process that continues throughout the life of all believers. Jesus Christ helps us understand this more clearly in John's Gospel:

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "œIf you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "œWe are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, "˜You will become free´?" Jesus answered them, "œTruly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
(John 8:31-34 ESV)

What are we set free from? Definitely not God's law. As the Lord teaches us consistently in His Word, we are set free from the curse of the law and sin. If we know the law, as the Jews did, but only live as breakers of the law, we are enslaved by the law, as it has led to sin rather than righteousness (which can only be accomplished through and in Christ Jesus our Lord). To a true believer in Christ Jesus, the law is "holy and righteous and good," aiding in our sanctification and a life of holiness before the Lord and in service of others, not slavery.

Should we seek to be obedient to God's laws and principles as set forth in His Word? Absolutely. Not only is it our Christian duty, but a means of our sanctification. God does not change with the passing of time, and His principles and Word remain true and resolute forever.

etc. . . .

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by joshua

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia

Respectfully, YOU are wrong. I think you had some from Bahnsen and several confessions as well.

Okay, so it was like 50 bucks. The last quoted portion are my thoughts, though.

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by puritansailor
Just an additional note here, it is better to look at the Sabbath from a more positive light than a list of do'd and don'ts. It's a special day of communing, resting, and delighting in our God apart from our normal worldly concerns, and He has specifically provided the day for that purpose . Therefore, have nothing to do, as much as can be managed, with those things which interupt your special communion with God on His special day with us. When you look at it from that angle, it will put things in perspective a little better.

Excellent point Patrick!!

I wanted to first affirm this wonderful post of Patrick's (with Fred's encouragement.) I could not agree more with it.

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult...but, it dawned on me that there are a host of Christian folk working on the Sabbath and I wondered about this....

First, what about the musicians? The ones that are on the payroll in the music department; working so very hard to transcribe, arrange, rehearse the choir; teaching voice lessons (as in our church); organists; harpists, etc., in order that the worship services is of the highest quality. Then, the pastors, who work all week, studying, thinking, writing sermons and on the Lord's Day are tireless in preaching, counseling, guarding...all those things that truly make them worthy of their wages? Church adminstrators; janitors; tech/sound department help; teaching staff? Leave-out those who volunteer services...but still...they are working---child care, food prep, church sextons, etc. Mostly, I'm asking about the salaried positions here. ???

I can attest that performing during a worship service is so mentally intense, it is NOT the same as only attending the service. There is much work to do in all of it -- though, in my heart, I have an attitude of worship.

The question is: are these Christians breaking God's Law by working on the Sabbath?



Robin

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Almost nothing you just mentioned applies to my church.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

*bumping an earlier post from this thread for consideration*

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
It's not possible in our Sabbath-breaking society to abstain from every thing that others do on the Lord's Day which they shouldn't be doing. Mail travels on the Lord's Day (and in some cases is delivered on the Lord's Day); does that mean one shouldn't read the mail that is delivered on Monday? I know that Stonewall Jackson was very meticulous in this regard, but it is not possible to filter out the sin of others in every respect. We should focus first and foremost on ourselves and whether what it is that we are doing in fact breaks the Lord's Day by intruding our own desires and pleasures upon it.

I agree that true Sabbath-keeping is not a list of do's and don'ts, but is exemplified in Augustine's famous saying, "Love God as do as thou wilt."

However, we can summarize the Ten Commandments as "Love God and love your neighbor" and still recognize that it is precisely a list of do's and don'ts. We need to think of God's law on both levels (the practical and the abstract).

We ought to examine ourselves as to what is so important that it would hinder our communion with the Lord on His holy day. The balance between Pharisaical legalism and antinomian looseness is a fine line to walk, but walk it we must. That is what it means to be holy in a fallen world.

[Edited on 17-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Robin

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by puritansailor
Just an additional note here, it is better to look at the Sabbath from a more positive light than a list of do'd and don'ts. It's a special day of communing, resting, and delighting in our God apart from our normal worldly concerns, and He has specifically provided the day for that purpose . Therefore, have nothing to do, as much as can be managed, with those things which interupt your special communion with God on His special day with us. When you look at it from that angle, it will put things in perspective a little better.

Excellent point Patrick!!

I wanted to first affirm this wonderful post of Patrick's (with Fred's encouragement.) I could not agree more with it.

I promise I'm not trying to be difficult...but, it dawned on me that there are a host of Christian folk working on the Sabbath and I wondered about this....

The distinction needs to be made in regards to serving and working. Obvioulsy the pastor is not desecrating the sabbath by hios faithful servanthood.

First, what about the musicians?

If the musicians are not members of the church and are being paid for their services on the Lords day, they are sinning and the pastor is sinning by allowing them to work in his pulpit. If they are members, I don't know of any church who pays for the services of the musicians or chorus.........

The ones that are on the payroll in the music department; working so very hard to transcribe, arrange, rehearse the choir; teaching voice lessons (as in our church); organists; harpists, etc., in order that the worship services is of the highest quality.

The minister of music is serving on the Lords day; He is paid for the other six days he labors.

Then, the pastors, who work all week, studying, thinking, writing sermons and on the Lord's Day are tireless in preaching, counseling, guarding...all those things that truly make them worthy of their wages?

???

Church adminstrators; janitors; tech/sound department help; teaching staff?

They are not working on the Lords day, they are serving. This is an act of mercy to Gods people.