Transitioning Denominations

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I am now seeing it is likely necessary for me to transfer to a reformed seminary to finish my M.Div. Which seminary would you recommend? I already have 66 credits from SBTS.
I am not sure where to look. I am also not sure how paying for seminary works as a presbyterian, especially if i have just moved to the church.
 
So… I’m a graduate of SBTS. I don’t know how the institution is nowadays, I went there in the early 2000s, during the heady days of it being robustly and very openly five point Calvinist… There were professors there who basically had TULIP tattooed on their knuckles.. I remember when Tom Nettles said that historically speaking every good Baptist was a Calvinist… I remember all that stuff… It was great! :D

But I believe the school had to rein it in because they were getting so much kickback from the SBC. Or so I heard.

The Southern Seminary I attended was fantastic, even if it wasn’t technically reformed.

You have 66 credits done and you’re thinking about transferring? WOW!

If you transfer, you’re gonna take two steps back in terms of your degree. You’re gonna repeat a number of courses because every institution wants you to take stuff at their institution.

Rather than redo two years of your life, I suggest that you finish up at Southern seminary… And if you feel like you didn’t get enough reformed theology, then go to a reformed school and get a ThM or MA or something. It’ll add to your Knowledge base, expand your résumé and result in a more well-rounded education in the long run. Without doing all the repeats.

Have you started attending one of the PCA churches in the Louisville area? What I did is… Upon becoming reformed I thought of transferring but when I visited certain schools, I realized the education I was getting at southern was academically superior and half the time the books they were reading at other places were books written by my professors at Southern. So I decided to stay at Southern and I was under care of the Presbytery and my pastor had me supplement my studies with distinctly Reformed authors… I had absolutely no problems passing my ordination exams… And I had no problem being interviewed by a few churches for assistant pastor positions, but I ultimately decided to become an army Chaplain.
 
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SolaScriptura said:
You have 66 credits done and you’re thinking about transferring? WOW!
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I appreciate the encouragement. It is still academically excellent, to be sure. And I have yet to meet a professor who is not unapologetically Calvinist. Reformed? Not at all. Wellem has just about everyone convinced of Progressive Covenantalism and Ware heads the dispensationas;l; and Hamilton is the king of historic-premil, while Schriner cant decide what he believes :lol:. I've sat under all these men and respect them greatly and have learned much.

I have been planning on finishing out my degree - at my current pace I would finish next December, which I would much prefer. but I have had many suggest I transfer to a reformed seminary. And as soon as I leave my Baptist church, I will have no way to afford my education. I have considered sticking it out in my SBC church, but I'm finding that increasingly difficult, and some even on this board have felt that would be dishonest. So with no easy road before me, I'm at least looking into my options. Maybe I should finish my degree online (which can be done) and move to a good Presbyterian church?

We did visit Community Presbyterian last Sunday and really liked it. Unfortunately it made it even harder to stay where we are.

When "under care," do presbyteries have a system for supporting seminary? I'm unfamiliar with the processes of the denominations, but my wife has friends in Brazil who have gone to seminary there sponsored by their denomination.
 
Corey Powell said:
I appreciate the encouragement. It is still academically excellent, to be sure. And I have yet to meet a professor who is not unapologetically Calvinist. Reformed? Not at all. Wellem has just about everyone convinced of Progressive Covenantalism and Ware heads the dispensationas;l; and Hamilton is the king of historic-premil, while Schriner cant decide what he believes :lol:. I've sat under all these men and respect them greatly and have learned much.

I have been planning on finishing out my degree - at my current pace I would finish next December, which I would much prefer. but I have had many suggest I transfer to a reformed seminary. And as soon as I leave my Baptist church, I will have no way to afford my education. I have considered sticking it out in my SBC church, but I'm finding that increasingly difficult, and some even on this board have felt that would be dishonest. So with no easy road before me, I'm at least looking into my options. Maybe I should finish my degree online (which can be done) and move to a good Presbyterian church?

We did visit Community Presbyterian last Sunday and really liked it. Unfortunately it made it even harder to stay where we are.

When "under care," do presbyteries have a system for supporting seminary? I'm unfamiliar with the processes of the denominations, but my wife has friends in Brazil who have gone to seminary there sponsored by their denomination.
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So you've got to disabuse yourself of the idea that your Presbytery is going to help fund seminary. That might happen in a few occasional places but it is NOT routine or common. Doubtful your church will either unless you're doing ministry with/for them and that'll likely take a while to establish a relationship of trust.

There is nothing dishonest about staying where you are, learning, and finishing your degree.... and unless you vowed to notify them if your beliefs changed (doubtful) or they do periodic doctrinal tests... just live humbly with them. I say stay where you are, meet on the side with the pastor to grow in your knowledge.. supplement your studies... finish... and then if you are still convinced of these newfound Reformed beliefs, then relocate and start attending, etc.

Me, I transferred to a PCA church (Redeemer because CPC was pretty much full-on FV at the time and from what I gather is at least still sympathetic... so you really need to slow down and find your bearings lest you get corrupted so early in your journey)... because while we were tight financially, we weren't THAT tight, and I had about a year left of studies so it was manageable.
 
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SolaScriptura said:
So you've got to disabuse yourself of the idea that your Presbytery is going to help fund seminary. That might happen in a few occasional places but it is NOT routine or common. Doubtful your church will either unless you're doing ministry with/for them and that'll likely take a while to establish a relationship of trust.

There is nothing dishonest about staying where you are, learning, and finishing your degree.... and unless you vowed to notify them if your beliefs changed (doubtful) or they do periodic doctrinal tests... just live humbly with them.
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I disagree. If someone is staying at a church they are not doctrinally aligned with, just to save money on Seminary, that is not only not being honest to the convictions God is placing on ones heart that has led to the change in position(s); but is abusing a system set-up to support future Baptist ministers. If he is decidedly no longer Baptist, which he has made apparent, then taking advantage of Baptist privileges, as some sort of stratagem, is not being honest. If he goes to his elders, explains the situation, and gets approval, that would be a different story.

This isnt a case of him not being able to attend SBTS attending a Presbyterian church. It is a case of trying to take advantage of the tuition stipend meant for future Baptist ministers. There is a difference. If he cannot afford to attend SBTS full-time while moving to a Presbyterian church, he can move to half-time, which should enable one to attend making the same income without the tuition discount. Christians shouldnt play games, or undercover politic. This may effect other areas down the road.
 
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davejonescue said:
I disagree. If someone is staying at a church they are not doctrinally aligned with, just to save money on Seminary, that is not only not being honest to the convictions God is placing on ones heart that has led to the change in position(s); but is abusing a system set-up to support future Baptist ministers. If he is decidedly no longer Baptist, then taking advantage of Baptist privileges, as some sort of stratagem, is not being honest. If he goes to his elders, explains the situation, and gets approval, that would be a different story.
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It is not true that someone has to agree with everything to be a member.
If someone follows your counsel that as soon as their convictions change they've got to uproot their lives and start over in an entirely new ecclesiastical context, that's the crassest and most dangerous form of pietism ever. He's been a Baptist for a long while, so it is NOT disingenuous to stay in his ecclesiastical home. As if being or not being a Baptist and "being entitled to baptist privileges" is just like flipping a switch. NO. Slow down. Finish your studies. For far too many a "change of conviction" is but a passing phase. Way better to stay a present course than to prematurely follow the rash counsel to uproot. He knows NOTHING of the Reformed world that's why he went to a church still riddled with FV sentiment and liked it... he doesn't know any better. So don't be hasty. Don't announce a conversion hastily thinking that this is an expression of certainty and courage. Just finish one's studies, and keep reading. He's way too close to the end to throw it away (and I get it: there's an urge to believe that doing so is precisely an expression of faith and conviction... all too often its hastiness and folly).
 
SolaScriptura said:
It is not true that someone has to agree with everything to be a member.
If someone follows your counsel that as soon as their convictions change they've got to uproot their lives and start over in an entirely new ecclesiastical context, that's the crassest and most dangerous form of pietism ever. NO. Slow down. Finish your studies. Far too many a "chance of conviction" is but a passing phase. He knows NOTHING of the Reformed world that's why he went to a church still riddled with FV sentiment and liked it... he doesn't know any better. So don't be hasty. Don't announce a conversion hastily thinking that this is an expression of certainty and courage. Just finish one's studies, and keep reading. He's way too close to the end to throw it away (and I get it: there's an urge to believe that doing so is precisely an expression of faith and conviction... all too often its hastiness and folly).
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I agree with that whole-heartily. What I dont agree with is the being certain, and already planning to ditch the Baptists upon graduation. Only he knows, but if his mind is set, and he knows it is set on this conviction, then he is not Baptist and shouldnt pretend to be. He should find a Presbyterian church, and deal with the repercussions of missing out on the Baptist stipend as they come. Even if this means finishing his degree slower.
 
davejonescue said:
I agree with that whole-heartily. What I dont agree with is the being certain, and already planning to ditch the Baptists upon graduation. Only he knows, but if his mind is set, and he knows it is set on this conviction, then he is not Baptist and shouldnt pretend to be. He should find a Presbyterian church, and deal with the repercussions of missing out on the Baptist stipend as they come.
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And what I'm saying is that the "certainty" of people who think they are "certain" is often rashness especially in that life stage. So finish the course and let things settle.
 
SolaScriptura said:
And what I'm saying is that the "certainty" of people who think they are "certain" is often rashness. So finish the course.
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Thats true, you do make a point. What I am more concerned with is a possible future for him where finances might be a inroad to compromise. Not saying he suffers from this, just saying temptations in the area of money tend to take just a tad to corrupt a whole mind. Today it may be saving money on seminary; what will it be tomorrow? I could care less where he goes to seminary, it is never letting money, ever, be a means of temptation or compromise; even if it complicates the situation more. Paul spoke similar things while training Timothy. If he is certain, and his mind is made up, then he needs to follow that path to where it leads.
 
davejonescue said:
Thats true, you do make a point. What I am more concerned with is a possible future for him where finances might be a inroad to compromise. Not saying he suffers from this, just saying temptations in the area of money tend to take just a tad to corrupt a whole mind. Today it may be saving money on seminary; what will it be tomorrow? I could care less where he goes to seminary, it is never letting money, ever, be a means of temptation or compromise; even if it complicates the situation more. Paul spoke similar things while training Timothy. If he is certain, and his mind is made up, then he needs to follow that path to where it leads.
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Very true... money is like fire: simultaneously helpful and dangerous... for even as we are told to not have the love of money, Scripture acknowledges the reality of having to make decisions based upon financial/material considerations. And it is important to note that even if a person makes a shrewd calculated decision related to finances, it doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of a love of money.
 
I didn't visit Redeemer because I had been told by someone that they have recently been too friendly with "side-b" sexuality stuff, which I have no interest in entertaining. Actually have looked into FV in my research (as I have inevitably been exposed to DW but do not subscribe to his theology) and didn't notice anything particular in the service, though we weren't sitting next to any particularly young children... so they may have given them the supper. We may try the small OPC plant that meets on Sunday evenings.

I appreciate the concern for my integrity. My plan is essentially to accept the wisdom of my elders; this should allow a clear conscience. It is very possible, I think likely, they will suggest I follow my convictions. I know I am not the first, but there have been more than a handful, to be in the internship program who have become Presbyterian. In fact, they mentioned some have even gone the FV direction.
I'm working with them now to set up a time to meet to disclose all this.

also, i am under no delusion that that a chruch ive never attended would pay for my seminary and in no way count on this. I am just unsure what seminary typically looks like on this side. RTS is.... very expensive and having a family i cannot afford the kind of seminaries that are fully funded but must be completed in 3 years (meaning i couldn't work and my wife would have to which i don't consider an option)
 
Corey, Greenville Theological Seminary would put you near a variety of some good churches, if you do decide to make a move.
 
If you are in the Greenville area (part of Calvary Presbytery; the same one that I am in), you owe it to yourself to attend 2nd Presbyterian Church. The pastor is Richard Phillips. Read any of his commentaries in the Reformed Expository Commentary series or check out his sermons on Sermon Audio. I cannot recommend him highly enough. A little further away is Woodruff Road Presbyterian Church whose pastor is Carl Robbins, again excellent. You will not find better pastors or teachers anywhere.
 
En Kristo said:
If you are in the Greenville area (part of Calvary Presbytery; the same one that I am in), you owe it to yourself to attend 2nd Presbyterian Church. The pastor is Richard Phillips. Read any of his commentaries in the Reformed Expository Commentary series or check out his sermons on Sermon Audio. I cannot recommend him highly enough. A little further away is Woodruff Road Presbyterian Church whose pastor is Carl Robbins, again excellent. You will not find better pastors or teachers anywhere.
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and https://antiochpca.com/about/
 
En Kristo said:
If you are in the Greenville area (part of Calvary Presbytery; the same one that I am in), you owe it to yourself to attend 2nd Presbyterian Church. The pastor is Richard Phillips. Read any of his commentaries in the Reformed Expository Commentary series or check out his sermons on Sermon Audio. I cannot recommend him highly enough. A little further away is Woodruff Road Presbyterian Church whose pastor is Carl Robbins, again excellent. You will not find better pastors or teachers anywhere.
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As a BJU grad in the early aughts, it's so super weird that there is a staunch Reformed presence, lol.
 
A question about Greenville, SC: one thing that I and many others have noted about living in Louisville as an aspiring Baptist pastor is the scarce opportunities to serve in various capacities, particularly opportunities to preach, in part because of the sheer amount of people wanting to do the same. The theological education is excellent, but the market for practical training is a bit over-competitive and dominated by PHDs and prodigies.
Seeing as Greenville is a popular Presbyterian seminary town with GPTS many reformed churches, would anyone say there is a similar concern for aspiring teachers and elders there?
 
Corey Powell said:
A question about Greenville, SC: one thing that I and many others have noted about living in Louisville as an aspiring Baptist pastor is the scarce opportunities to serve in various capacities, particularly opportunities to preach, in part because of the sheer amount of people wanting to do the same. The theological education is excellent, but the market for practical training is a bit over-competitive and dominated by PHDs and prodigies.
Seeing as Greenville is a popular Presbyterian seminary town with GPTS many reformed churches, would anyone say there is a similar concern for aspiring teachers and elders there?
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It would depend on the church. As an FCC student, I've had a lot of preaching opportunities. Last weekend, I was in Dallas; this weekend I'm in southern Alberta. I think I've preached in seven states in the last year, and I'm on my third country.

That wouldn't be typical for, say, an OPC, PCA, or ARP student, though. The broader the church, the more options they have for supply preachers.
 
TylerRay said:
Greenville, SC is a nice area, and has a variety of Presbyterian denominations (PCA, OPC, FCC, etc.). From what I understand, the PCA and OPC presbyteries represented there are some of the better ones in those denominations.
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I agree. I grew up near there, and I can confirm there are some great churches near Greenville. If you go slightly further south from there, you'll find ARP (Associate Reformed Presbyterian) which is also a solid denomination that might be worth checking into. I'm not sure how far north they reach.
 
Update: I was able to meet with my pastor yesterday. It was a very encouraging conversation and very clarifying.
He wanted to challenge me, rightly and helpfully so, on my change of mind and suggested I look further into what he referred to as the "implications" of Reformed covenant theology.

However, if in fact I am more settled in these convictions [which I have reflected on much and believe I am], then that will have some effect.
He told me that our membership covenant states that we cannot have any "settled convictions" against the statement of faith. So, if I understood him correctly, declaring myself in disagreement on baptism would essentially remove me from good standing.
He also said he is 100% of the opinion that retaining my membership for the sake of the SBC scholarship would be stealing. That money, he says, is given out of a denomination's obligation to seek its own propagation and not for the kingdom in general, as he believes each denomination should do. He suggests that we find a church that matches our convictions. As I stated before, I plan to accept the wise council of my elders.

What this means: changing churches will mean losing the tuition discount, which will mean I can no longer afford seminary, which will mean my family will have to leave student housing. Though there are other options, what makes the most sense to us in this scenario is that we go ahead and choose a church that we think would be best for our family and (long-term) ministry preparation and move there, about a year sooner than we were anticipating.


On a related note:
Does anyone have recommendations for churches in Tennessee (Nashville/Knoxville) or NC (Asheville, Raleigh)? We have a few churches we are looking at in Greenville SC and Chatanooga, but are wanting to expand our search a little before we move forward
 
I have a good friend in Nashville who is a Christian and a realtor; she attends Covenant PCA, but would be an invaluable resource if you move to Nashville, wherever you end up attending. PM me if you would like contact information.

My daughter attended Peace Presbyterian (PCA) in Cary, NC, which is part of Raleigh, a number of years ago and had a great experience there.

City Church (ARP) in Ashville was planted by dear friends of mine, Duff & Kristi James. I'd very happily attend there.
 
Corey Powell said:
Update: I was able to meet with my pastor yesterday. It was a very encouraging conversation and very clarifying.
He wanted to challenge me, rightly and helpfully so, on my change of mind and suggested I look further into what he referred to as the "implications" of Reformed covenant theology.
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I so agree with him here. I think you should take a 6 month moratorium on declaring that you have newfound convictions and study out the implications.
 
Corey Powell said:
On a related note:
Does anyone have recommendations for churches in Tennessee (Nashville/Knoxville) or NC (Asheville, Raleigh)? We have a few churches we are looking at in Greenville SC and Chatanooga, but are wanting to expand our search a little before we move forward
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I'm not sure if you're exclusively looking at Asheville and Raleigh for NC options, but Cornerstone Presbyterian (FCC) in Burlington would be an excellent choice. Gavin Beers would be a good person to sit under while you prepare for future ministry opportunities.
 
Corey Powell said:
Update: I was able to meet with my pastor yesterday. It was a very encouraging conversation and very clarifying.
He wanted to challenge me, rightly and helpfully so, on my change of mind and suggested I look further into what he referred to as the "implications" of Reformed covenant theology.

However, if in fact I am more settled in these convictions [which I have reflected on much and believe I am], then that will have some effect.
He told me that our membership covenant states that we cannot have any "settled convictions" against the statement of faith. So, if I understood him correctly, declaring myself in disagreement on baptism would essentially remove me from good standing.
He also said he is 100% of the opinion that retaining my membership for the sake of the SBC scholarship would be stealing. That money, he says, is given out of a denomination's obligation to seek its own propagation and not for the kingdom in general, as he believes each denomination should do. He suggests that we find a church that matches our convictions. As I stated before, I plan to accept the wise council of my elders.

What this means: changing churches will mean losing the tuition discount, which will mean I can no longer afford seminary, which will mean my family will have to leave student housing. Though there are other options, what makes the most sense to us in this scenario is that we go ahead and choose a church that we think would be best for our family and (long-term) ministry preparation and move there, about a year sooner than we were anticipating.


On a related note:
Does anyone have recommendations for churches in Tennessee (Nashville/Knoxville) or NC (Asheville, Raleigh)? We have a few churches we are looking at in Greenville SC and Chatanooga, but are wanting to expand our search a little before we move forward
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Corey,
I won't speak to the above, directly, but in reading it, the following came to mind as you consider all these things:

If you move to a Reformed denomination (PCA, OPC, ARP, FCC,...) your studies/path toward ministry would become subject to that presbytery. Your current (if it is so) pursuit of ministry is no longer a "shoe in" because of your education level. Reformed denominations vet their potential candidates and subject them to trials most Baptist interns/licentiates/candidates wouldn't face in my experience. I've heard of some long and precise theological "grilling" on the floor of presbytery. This is in no way to deter you, but to inform you.

It sounds like our paths to Reformed convictions have some real similarities. If I could offer one piece of advice to myself 15 years ago, it would be this; study and understand Covenant theology and the issue of "baptism", whether you stay Baptist or embrace the Reformed understanding, will fall into place without giving much thought to it........ The wise Bruce Buchanan helped me tremendously with the counsel above. The issue isn't baptism. The question is who is in the covenant? Feel free to PM me to talk.
 
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