sgemmen9
Puritan Board Freshman
I would check to see which seminaries accept your credits. Unfortunately, seminary credits do not transfer as easily as college credits do.
Transitioning Denominations
- Thread starter Corey Powell
- Start date
- Status
iainduguid
Puritan Board Junior
Westminster currently has full scholarships available for residential MDiv students. However, it is likely that many classes would not transfer over from Southern, nor should they. A reformed education is going to be quite distinctive, and you still have much to learn. Just having completed "a class" in the Doctrine of the Church or on the Pentateuch and done some reading on your own is not the same as a thoroughly covenantal theological education. You also need time to settle into your new views and spend some time as an ordinary member of a Reformed church. How can you lead others before you have spent some time as a follower in your new convictions? God is not always in as much of a hurry as we are.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
… So that’s one good way too show how certain you are of your newfound convictions: uproot your family move across the country find jobs all in hopes that in time your new ecclesiastical home will agree that you should go to seminary.
Or, acknowledge that while you’re inclined to think you have these new convictions acknowledge that you’ve still got a lot to learn and slow down and finish your MDiv where you are.
Or, acknowledge that while you’re inclined to think you have these new convictions acknowledge that you’ve still got a lot to learn and slow down and finish your MDiv where you are.
davejonescue
Puritan Board Graduate
Brother. He said he is convinced, and he has spoken to his elders. Others here and his elders agree that a premeditated staying put simply to finish seminary while planning on abandoning the denomination right afterwards would be a misappropriation of the funds and tuition scholarship. Why do you keep trying to press this guys conscience to ignore his elders guidance under the guise of feigned undecidedness? If he is convinced, which he states he is, he should be truthful to his convictions instead of worrying about finishing seminary at the moment. He can always finish seminary later. If God has called him to be a Pastor, he can have full-assurance God will provide for his education without having to scheme his way to a discounted MDiv.… So that’s one good way too show how certain you are of your newfound convictions: uproot your family move across the country find jobs all in hopes that in time your new ecclesiastical home will agree that you should go to seminary.
Or, acknowledge that while you’re inclined to think you have these new convictions acknowledge that you’ve still got a lot to learn and slow down and finish your MDiv where you are.
He is in student housing, not a permanent home. He is not really uprooting anything. He will eventually have to leave regardless. And if his new church decides he is not quite ready for seminary in his new found denomination, then he will have to humbly take the steps to work towards that however they guide. It is like Dr. Duguid said, he doesnt have to get seminary done tomorrow. Let patience have its perfect work.
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SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
And I’m saying, that just because he says he’s convinced does not mean he is settled.
Which is what the best counsel underscores…. Every single other person who would say that simply on the basis of his right-now, newfound “conviction” that he should change churches, cancel schooling, and relocate, and all this other stuff… Every single one who would give that advice whether they are an elder or not, is advocating reflexiveness rather than maturity.
Not that he’s being deceitful, not at all. I’ve just seen way too much rashness in my day. It would be better for him to simply drop out of school and stay where he is and actually study things in his current church than to move and try to start over.
One such thing that he needs to really reckon with is that a change in his ecclesiastical policy would carry with it potentially literally starting over with whether or not he should even be in seminary. The idea that he has that he would just transfer and keep going hardly skipping a beat, well that’s the first balloon that pops. There are so many implications of a switch that he needs to reckon through before just diving headfirst. And I think that’s what his pastor was saying.
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Polanus1561
Puritan Board Senior
This is the reverse of @Blood-Bought Pilgrim 's situation it seems
davejonescue
Puritan Board Graduate
I wasnt saying he is being deceitful. He is planning to follow his convictions and the judgment of his elders. I am questioning why it seemed you were telling him to feign undecidedness to graduate? I understand your worry of him being rash, but he has been thinking this over for at least 3 months now on PB, not to mention the time of study it took for him to come to this conclusion. To me it seems him getting his MDiv by any means necessary is your biggest concern, which it isnt. Having a clear conscience before God, especially dealing with Gods money is. He has plenty of time to go back to Seminary somewhere else. Better to do it 100% the right way; even if that way is a bit uncomfortable.
Blood-Bought Pilgrim
Puritan Board Sophomore
Definitely some similarities, though my situation panned out a bit differently and I ended up continuing at RTS anyway. And there was no move involved for us, thankfully.
Not an easy or enviable situation brother. I’ll share with you the advice which I have received from others and have found profitable repeatedly. Go slow and be patient. As Dr. Duguid noted above, the Lord is often not in as big of a hurry as we are. This is a lesson I’m still learning regularly.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
His Baptist pastor and elders aren’t endowed with special particular wisdom, I know precisely how territorial many of these guys can be and the minute you give off the aroma that you’re not sure you’re on their side they pounce on you like a pack of wolves. That’s what emotionally prepared me for Presbyterianism, and every other person I knew at Southern, who had that similar transition experience. There’s definitely a “shoot our wounded” mindset in many traditions. And yet even in his case he reported that his pastor advised slowing down and reflecting on some things…
My counsel is not about deceiving anybody. And it is both lamentable and angering that some here think that’s what I’m advocating. No, my counsel is about protecting himself from himself, because I said: I’ve seen many examples of young lion seminarians, deceiving themselves into making rash declarations of a change in commitments. It’s what’s referred to in the Bible as counting the cost. The part of wisdom is to slow down and examine a matter thoroughly. And the greater changes the decision brings to one’s life. The greater the reflection should be before committal is made.
I’ve just been around on both sides of the pond long enough that I’m saying: there’s a good likelihood that his convictions will change overtime and I think he should stay the course or at least take a step back for a while rather than just embark on a new trajectory. Because finishing his MDiv where he is will not hurt him if he ultimately decides to pursue ordination in a reformed tradition. And he’s always able to go get another degree that will add to his resume without making him retrace his steps. What I’m speaking is the way of wisdom.
Anyway, I’m not gonna interact with anyone else who’s objecting that I am trying to get him to not just dive in head first to a major relocation and life change.
He’s young, the Bible and history tells you who he’s gonna be most inclined to listen to, so I’ll stop talking… but I’m leaving my comments up as a testimony.
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davejonescue
Puritan Board Graduate
His elders, whether Baptist or not are there for the overseeing and protection of his soul. To disregard them so easily, is kind of like saying someone in your congregation should easily dismiss something you have to say about their situation as a senior Pastor. I don't think you would be of that opinion. Nothing his elders told him was off base. "If he is decided" there is steps he needs to take. "If he is decided" is a question only he can answer.
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
I think Pastor Ben's got some wise counsel here before you make major, life uprooting changes. I went from mainline Methodist evangelical to exploring for about 5-6 years before really stabilizing such that my current views are largely tweaks and adjustments to my new baseline AFTER I ended up at a PCA church and are now rather stable. But I spent significant time considering more Covenanter churches, spent some time in the mixed Presbyterian/Dutch OPC, and have been back in the PCA. That took a lot of time, conversation not just online, and so on. And I'm just a lay-person. I've had largely stable transplant beliefs that have grown organically in some ways but within the new context I'm in over the last 10-15 years.
Here's a good acid test you might want to consider that goes to the heart of the issue:
If you're at the point you believe you're in serious sin for not having your child baptized, then I'd agree you need to leave to go to a church that fits your convictions, but I would highly suggest you not uproot and stay in your current locale. An L shaped trajectory is better than a leap into across a gaping chasm. L-shaped would mean that you'd stay in your local community, joining one of the presbyterian churches in town and planning for the future next steps where you might then need to make the big jump to another seminary after your convictions have settled into place and you've been "wearing" them for awhile. In one sense, the Presbyterian world has incredibly nuanced distinctions, but on the other side, there are major differences in faith and practice even between the highly confessional wing of the PCA, the OPC, ARP, RPCNA, URCNA, FCC, and so on. Where you ultimately settle and marinate, with a local pastor and elders who have their own particularities, good and bad, will make a lot of difference.
Here's a good acid test you might want to consider that goes to the heart of the issue:
- How ready are you to have your own infant child baptized (I believe you've mentioned you and your wife have a new child)? 50% ready, 75% ready, or a this absolutely needs to get done ASAP?
- Perhaps to put a further point on it, do you see yourself in sin for not having had your covenant child baptized, not just on an intellectual level but on the conviction level?
If you're at the point you believe you're in serious sin for not having your child baptized, then I'd agree you need to leave to go to a church that fits your convictions, but I would highly suggest you not uproot and stay in your current locale. An L shaped trajectory is better than a leap into across a gaping chasm. L-shaped would mean that you'd stay in your local community, joining one of the presbyterian churches in town and planning for the future next steps where you might then need to make the big jump to another seminary after your convictions have settled into place and you've been "wearing" them for awhile. In one sense, the Presbyterian world has incredibly nuanced distinctions, but on the other side, there are major differences in faith and practice even between the highly confessional wing of the PCA, the OPC, ARP, RPCNA, URCNA, FCC, and so on. Where you ultimately settle and marinate, with a local pastor and elders who have their own particularities, good and bad, will make a lot of difference.
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Blood-Bought Pilgrim
Puritan Board Sophomore
I know I’m a bit late to this conversation, but having made the pilgrimage in the opposite direction not too long ago let me echo this. Just because you feel strongly, that does not mean you are settled or should think of yourself as such.
If you can in good conscience give yourself time to submit to your elders and continue learning where you are, with genuine humility and openness, I’d encourage you to do so.
J.L. Allen
Puritan Board Junior
@Corey Powell ,
What classes do you have left? Perhaps that's a PM, which is fine.
You're only 18 credits away from completing your MDiv at SBTS. There are Presbyterian churches in the area. You could slow down, reflect on the convictions you've come to, consider the question of having your own child baptized, talk and pray with your wife to make sure she's onboard with things, and work part-time or full-time to offset the cost. Yes, it might take you a few additional years to complete your MDiv, but you'll have finished it, figured some things out, and support your family. Whatever denomination will still be there when you are ready. Yes, you might need to study extra hard to pass exams for whatever presbytery, but that's fine. You'll be equipped to shepherd the people of God in that manner. There's nothing to lose here.
To put it bluntly, I think uprooting your family to start all over again (a process that will take as long or longer than what I describe above) is rash. If I had a guy come into the church having done that, I'd be a little worried about unbridled zeal and what that could mean for the people of God in the future. How a man leads his family is indicative of how he will lead the church.
So don't throw away all the work that you've done and that people have supported. It's worth finishing, even if you have to foot the bill yourself. Also checkout any other scholarships the school has. I can't imagine the SBC discount is the only one.
What classes do you have left? Perhaps that's a PM, which is fine.
You're only 18 credits away from completing your MDiv at SBTS. There are Presbyterian churches in the area. You could slow down, reflect on the convictions you've come to, consider the question of having your own child baptized, talk and pray with your wife to make sure she's onboard with things, and work part-time or full-time to offset the cost. Yes, it might take you a few additional years to complete your MDiv, but you'll have finished it, figured some things out, and support your family. Whatever denomination will still be there when you are ready. Yes, you might need to study extra hard to pass exams for whatever presbytery, but that's fine. You'll be equipped to shepherd the people of God in that manner. There's nothing to lose here.
To put it bluntly, I think uprooting your family to start all over again (a process that will take as long or longer than what I describe above) is rash. If I had a guy come into the church having done that, I'd be a little worried about unbridled zeal and what that could mean for the people of God in the future. How a man leads his family is indicative of how he will lead the church.
So don't throw away all the work that you've done and that people have supported. It's worth finishing, even if you have to foot the bill yourself. Also checkout any other scholarships the school has. I can't imagine the SBC discount is the only one.
Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
I'd like to second the excellent advice given here to slow down and not make any rash moves. I'd also like to emphasize a couple of things that I think are worth some additional thought.
First, don't make too much of the "problem" of being a Reformed Presbyterian with a Baptist seminary education. Seminary marks the beginning of your learning, not the sum of it, and it gives you tools to build on. If you come to a solidly Presbyterian and Reformed viewpoint, you will be perfectly able to filter past teaching and reading through that lens. There's also nothing stopping you from supplementing your current seminary reading or engaging in additional reading and learning in the future.
Second, don't forget your duty to provide for your family. It's true that you don't want to be deceitful or underhanded. The way to do this is... wait for it... drum roll... by not being deceitful or underhanded. Rather, remind yourself that your familial needs are an integral part of your Christian duty and that this should weigh on you to slow down and think through your next steps. A certain degree of shrewdness might (should? must?) be in order but it should be shrewdness dictated by prudence and consideration of your vocational and familial prospects, not by how to sneak under the Baptist radar as a closet Presbyterian. And in that vein I would urge you to take seriously the advice given in this thread - take stock of yourself and have some genuine emotional self-awareness before you throw in the towel and declare yourself a full-blooded paedobaptist. It's a good rule of life that a conviction that comes on quickly will go away with the same readiness, and the people to whom you entrust your future know that and will judge you accordingly. Think of Timothy's warning against novices. Be tried and true, not impulsively zealous.
Certainly none of the advice given in this thread is inviolate, however much some of us PBers might cherish some such notion about our contributions. It may well be that you KNOW, and that you truly have arrived at a settled conviction. Ultimately, only you can judge that. Even if that's the case, I would advise prudence and reserve. But if you can't - if you (and your wife... she and you had better be in harmony here) cannot in good conscience continue on this course, if you have to make a change now or fear incurring God's wrath - then by all means you have to follow the Lord's leading. In such a case, you would be wise to have some external confirmation and guidance along the way, and you would be wise to heed what has been said in this thread. You would be looking at a rollback of some years in your timeline and starting at the bottom rung of familiarity and integration into an environment, also with real financial implications. Proceed with your eyes open. What has been said in this thread is not gospel dictate, but it is the type of counsel that generally turns out to have been right very much more often than not.
First, don't make too much of the "problem" of being a Reformed Presbyterian with a Baptist seminary education. Seminary marks the beginning of your learning, not the sum of it, and it gives you tools to build on. If you come to a solidly Presbyterian and Reformed viewpoint, you will be perfectly able to filter past teaching and reading through that lens. There's also nothing stopping you from supplementing your current seminary reading or engaging in additional reading and learning in the future.
Second, don't forget your duty to provide for your family. It's true that you don't want to be deceitful or underhanded. The way to do this is... wait for it... drum roll... by not being deceitful or underhanded. Rather, remind yourself that your familial needs are an integral part of your Christian duty and that this should weigh on you to slow down and think through your next steps. A certain degree of shrewdness might (should? must?) be in order but it should be shrewdness dictated by prudence and consideration of your vocational and familial prospects, not by how to sneak under the Baptist radar as a closet Presbyterian. And in that vein I would urge you to take seriously the advice given in this thread - take stock of yourself and have some genuine emotional self-awareness before you throw in the towel and declare yourself a full-blooded paedobaptist. It's a good rule of life that a conviction that comes on quickly will go away with the same readiness, and the people to whom you entrust your future know that and will judge you accordingly. Think of Timothy's warning against novices. Be tried and true, not impulsively zealous.
Certainly none of the advice given in this thread is inviolate, however much some of us PBers might cherish some such notion about our contributions. It may well be that you KNOW, and that you truly have arrived at a settled conviction. Ultimately, only you can judge that. Even if that's the case, I would advise prudence and reserve. But if you can't - if you (and your wife... she and you had better be in harmony here) cannot in good conscience continue on this course, if you have to make a change now or fear incurring God's wrath - then by all means you have to follow the Lord's leading. In such a case, you would be wise to have some external confirmation and guidance along the way, and you would be wise to heed what has been said in this thread. You would be looking at a rollback of some years in your timeline and starting at the bottom rung of familiarity and integration into an environment, also with real financial implications. Proceed with your eyes open. What has been said in this thread is not gospel dictate, but it is the type of counsel that generally turns out to have been right very much more often than not.
clawrence9008
Puritan Board Freshman
Praise God! Arden is an awesome church that has been through a lot in the last few years (I visited there over the summer while working at Ridge Haven).
Corey Powell
Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement in this. It is good for me to hear more say to "slow down" in this transition, I do wish to do this wisely and with integrity, leading my family well.
So though I certainly can/should consider more closely these matters, I don't think it's quite right to say that I'm making changes on a whim. No, I don't have the thorough reformed foundation of a seminary education from RTS or CTS, etc, but I didn't decide this last week either. I would say I am thoroughly convinced of covenant theology from Scripture, not just from reading books and listening to lectures. Regarding implications and counting the cost, what is downstream from convictions would be secondary to fidelity to Scripture, no? If I change my mind about Scripture because of practical things, that would be far worse. I am confident in this understanding of the Word, and trust the witness of the Confession and reformed tradition as a whole much more than my own perception. I got tired of doing my theology a la carte. Is this wrongheaded?
I have been walking through this with my wife and she is where I am as well (though more eager to move than I)
to answer your specific questions:
As to uprooting: we'll be starting all over again either way come graduation. We do not plan on staying in Lousiville but desire to find the right church to plant our family in, which does not exist here. I plan on taking a SLOW path to ordination; again, I have no delusion that I will be ordained in the next few years. I want to be a faithful church member at a church which we can agree with, learn from, grow in, and serve in. If we leave soon I would plan on finishing online since I am so close, because I do have that option with SBTS. So if I'm already having to change church AND work to stay here, is it really beneficial to be part of a church we don't plan on staying at for one year and then going to another church after that? not to mention switching jobs so often could put my family in a precarious financial situation, particularly because we need healthcare for my wife. But it may be worth this just to get the degree finished. That's what I'm wrestling with.
I very much appreciate all the caution given. I would like to clarify where I find myself. although I started this thread months ago, I have been studying/moving in this direction intentionally for a year now and have been using my limited spare time to listen/read in many areas of polity, sacraments, covenant theology, the law, etc. though I dedicated much more time to it this summer and have come, I think, thoroughly to these convictions.
So though I certainly can/should consider more closely these matters, I don't think it's quite right to say that I'm making changes on a whim. No, I don't have the thorough reformed foundation of a seminary education from RTS or CTS, etc, but I didn't decide this last week either. I would say I am thoroughly convinced of covenant theology from Scripture, not just from reading books and listening to lectures. Regarding implications and counting the cost, what is downstream from convictions would be secondary to fidelity to Scripture, no? If I change my mind about Scripture because of practical things, that would be far worse. I am confident in this understanding of the Word, and trust the witness of the Confession and reformed tradition as a whole much more than my own perception. I got tired of doing my theology a la carte. Is this wrongheaded?
I have been walking through this with my wife and she is where I am as well (though more eager to move than I)
to answer your specific questions:
- I am 100% ready to have my daughter baptized (she is almost 2). I would say as soon as possible, Yes. but clearly, the possibility is a nuanced subject.
- Were I in a position to do so and withheld it, yes I would be in sin. However, as I am not currently in a position to do so, I think I would be in sin if I made rash decisions to achieve that end.
After this semester I will have:
- Apologetics
- Evangelism
- NT survey 1 (The Gospels) (Registered for Spring)
- Typical Problems in Counseling (taking it in the winter)
- Biblical Counseling Practicum (Registered for Spring)
- Preaching Practicum
- 1 free elective
As to uprooting: we'll be starting all over again either way come graduation. We do not plan on staying in Lousiville but desire to find the right church to plant our family in, which does not exist here. I plan on taking a SLOW path to ordination; again, I have no delusion that I will be ordained in the next few years. I want to be a faithful church member at a church which we can agree with, learn from, grow in, and serve in. If we leave soon I would plan on finishing online since I am so close, because I do have that option with SBTS. So if I'm already having to change church AND work to stay here, is it really beneficial to be part of a church we don't plan on staying at for one year and then going to another church after that? not to mention switching jobs so often could put my family in a precarious financial situation, particularly because we need healthcare for my wife. But it may be worth this just to get the degree finished. That's what I'm wrestling with.
If you can finish SBTS online that seems like a wise move. I wouldn't worry about having a Baptist M.Div. There are plenty who went to a Baptist seminary for an MDiv and then became paedobaptist ministers! Perhaps it comes down to praying for God to provide the right work that will provide for your family, whether that's Louisville or another city.
Blood-Bought Pilgrim
Puritan Board Sophomore
One final thought from my experience brother;
After I made the switch from Presbyterian to Baptist I ended up taking about a year off of seminary. It was unintentional at first, and I'm now back finishing my degree at the same place I was at before, but it was a good time for me to settle my soul a bit and learn at our new church. While of course I'd like to be done with seminary sooner, it was right for me and my family. If you do uproot and the obstacles to continuing seminary at this moment seem insurmountable, it's worth considering if it might be the Lord's signal to hit pause for a short time, even if you end up finishing at SBTS later on. I'm not saying that is definitely right for you-- just food for thought.
After I made the switch from Presbyterian to Baptist I ended up taking about a year off of seminary. It was unintentional at first, and I'm now back finishing my degree at the same place I was at before, but it was a good time for me to settle my soul a bit and learn at our new church. While of course I'd like to be done with seminary sooner, it was right for me and my family. If you do uproot and the obstacles to continuing seminary at this moment seem insurmountable, it's worth considering if it might be the Lord's signal to hit pause for a short time, even if you end up finishing at SBTS later on. I'm not saying that is definitely right for you-- just food for thought.
Ploutos
Puritan Board Graduate
@Corey Powell - this is something of a shot in the dark, but - would your current pastor/session help you transition out of a credobaptist context? Would they be willing to provide character statements or some such thing, help you get settled in to a paedobaptist church, maybe even one in the Louisville area? This presumes, of course, that a paedobaptist church would be willing to help see you through the rest of your education at SBTS. Of course, maybe your pastor/session might just as willingly help you get settled somewhere else, but I'm just thinking that they're likely to have some personal contacts with other Reformed churches in the area.
I do know a current GPTS student who interned for a couple of years at a Reformed Baptist church. They had a very solid agreement, and they approved him having his infants baptized elsewhere. So there's some precedent, somewhere, for these kinds of Baptist/Presbyterian crossover sagas.
I do know a current GPTS student who interned for a couple of years at a Reformed Baptist church. They had a very solid agreement, and they approved him having his infants baptized elsewhere. So there's some precedent, somewhere, for these kinds of Baptist/Presbyterian crossover sagas.
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