United Methodist Founders Ministry
- Thread starter Martin
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If there is, I am sure Pastor Marshall would know. He is a PB member and you can send him a private message here: http://www.puritanboard.com/members/whitefield/
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
There is a distinction to be made between the Methodist denomination and early Methodism as a movement.
The United Methodists in this country and the Methodist denomination in general have never had anything to do with Calvinism. As a denomination it was Wesleyan/Arminian at the start and its origin in the USA dates back to Francis Asbury and Thomas Coke in the 1780's.
Whitefield was a Methodist with regard to his methods i.e. open air preaching, getting out in the highways and byways, etc. But he was not an organizer to the extent that Wesley was and left behind no formal organization as I understand it. There are the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists, but they didn't formally separate from the Church of England (by ordaining their own ministers) until 1811 and they were never part of the Wesleyan Methodists.
The United Methodists in this country and the Methodist denomination in general have never had anything to do with Calvinism. As a denomination it was Wesleyan/Arminian at the start and its origin in the USA dates back to Francis Asbury and Thomas Coke in the 1780's.
Whitefield was a Methodist with regard to his methods i.e. open air preaching, getting out in the highways and byways, etc. But he was not an organizer to the extent that Wesley was and left behind no formal organization as I understand it. There are the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists, but they didn't formally separate from the Church of England (by ordaining their own ministers) until 1811 and they were never part of the Wesleyan Methodists.
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
No.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Indeed it's true. I've looked. In a day when God is bringing reformation and revival to so many historic denominations (Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, et al), there are virtually no signs of life in the UMC (at least from my observations).
For as strange as this may sound, I'd be happy to see even a vibrant Wesleyan witness of the Gospel taking hold. Someone, ANYONE saying, "Hey, so THIS is what Wesley believed... Then why are we...?" And the rest is history. But this, I believe, is the Lord's doing. He may be giving the UMC over to their sin and rebellion (along with the ECUS, PCUSA, ABC, et al).
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
Martin
Puritan Board Freshman
This is very interesting. I have had the thought that judgment has come, even at the local level. During our last revival, the preacher preached a message of blessing and breakthrough. His favorites to quote were Joyce Meyers and Tammy Faye Baker. It was like being at a live taping of a TBN broadcast. The whole time "accumulate teachers in accordance to their own desires" resounded through my mind. I am struggling with if I should leave the denomination or not. My fiance and I have
been visiting a Baptist church on Sunday evenings and Wednesday nights where we hear reformed expository preaching. It has been a breath of fresh air to us.
been visiting a Baptist church on Sunday evenings and Wednesday nights where we hear reformed expository preaching. It has been a breath of fresh air to us.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
A movement which features female "ministers" as apart of its leadership. That's not setting the bar for reform very high.
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
A movement which features female "ministers" as apart of its leadership. That's not setting the bar for reform very high.
I don't know of any Wesleyan/Arminian denomination of any historic and/or numerical significance that does not ordain women. That includes evangelical Wesleyan Arminians like the Nazarenes, the Wesleyans, the Free Methodists, etc. I'm speaking of the USA here, I am not familiar with the situation in other parts of the world. But I'd be surprised if many are officially complementarian.
Speaking of the Nazarenes, there is apparently a good bit of infighting over emergent church influences coming into the church.
I grew up in a liberal UM congregation. The first church I joined after my conversion was Wesleyan after seeing an ad in the paper advertising a Conservative Methodist church with verse by verse preaching. The pastor was strongly influenced by MacArthur's expository practice. He is arguably more Calvinistic than a lot of Southern Baptists and other Baptists who historically (and officially, based on their statements of faith) would be a lot closer to Calvinism. At least he knows what Calvinists actually believe, which is more than can be said of many others. Unlike some in his denomination, he is firmly cessationist and rejects entire sanctification as well.
---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
Similar to what Lane noted with regard to the RCA the other day, given the present state of affairs, I'd be surprised to see the UMC kick anyone out over any theological issue whatsoever.
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
A movement which features female "ministers" as apart of its leadership. That's not setting the bar for reform very high.
I was not making any reference to the Confessing Movement as being reforming or reformed. I was simply responding to your "I'd be happy to see even a vibrant Wesleyan witness of the Gospel...".
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
A movement which features female "ministers" as apart of its leadership. That's not setting the bar for reform very high.
It has to be better than some of the wicked stuff I have seen. Seminars that promote Wicca or goddess worship have been allowed in some of the seminars in this area. Environmentalism and Mother Earth stuff has also been promoted. We have one Church here in town that is overly accepting of the gay community. I am not saying we shun homosexuals at all. They need ministering to and they need grace and mercy just as all of us do. But this acceptance is beyond that. Here is a sample of what one of these Churches is like.....
http://www.broadwayumc.org/pages/who.html
Anything that at least acknowledges the scriptures to be the Bible and that at least believes one needs a spiritual rebirth and reconciliation to God is a great place to start. Maybe I am simplistic but repentance from those kind of things excite me when I remember some of the deadness and spiritual wickedness I have seen allowed into the UMC. I get excited when I see wickedness rebuked and exposed as the Bible says they should be. I rejoice to hear that the UMC has some true life in it. Thanks for telling us Reverend Marshall.
BTW, the church I linked to above must think that those who speak against sin don't value all of life. At least that is the implication I get. Or they value it better than others. Maybe I am reading too much into it. But I don't think so.
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
The Good New Movement has pretty much run its course, it tended to be an advocacy group from the top down. The Confessing Movement is more grass-roots and is having an impact through organizing at a more local level.
---------- Post added at 07:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------
Well, there is an evangelical/conservative movement in the UMC which is becoming quite powerful and influential. It is called The Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church. It is not Calvinistic by any means, but they haven't kicked me out yet.
A movement which features female "ministers" as apart of its leadership. That's not setting the bar for reform very high.
It has to be better than some of the wicked stuff I have seen. Seminars that promote Wicca or goddess worship have been allowed in some of the seminars in this area. Environmentalism and Mother Earth stuff has also been promoted. We have one Church here in town that is overly accepting of the gay community. I am not saying we shun homosexuals at all. They need ministering to and they need grace and mercy just as all of us do. But this acceptance is beyond that. Here is a sample of what one of these Churches is like.....
broadway umc
Anything that at least acknowledges the scriptures to be the Bible and that at least believes one needs a spiritual rebirth and reconciliation to God is a great place to start. Maybe I am simplistic but repentance from those kind of things excite me when I remember some of the deadness and spiritual wickedness I have seen allowed into the UMC. I get excited when I see wickedness rebuked and exposed as the Bible says they should be. I rejoice to hear that the UMC has some true life in it. Thanks for telling us Reverend Marshall.
BTW, the church I linked to above must think that those who speak against sin don't value all of life. At least that is the implication I get. Or they value it better than others. Maybe I am reading too much into it. But I don't think so.
Broadway has been on the fringe for over 40 years. Their antics are usually met with bemusement and rolled-eyes by many in the area.
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