Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
contemporary is a relative term. Miriam's song was contemporary at the time.
Lifting Up Your Hands During Worship
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Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Contemporary isn't relative, it's a noun that describes a type of worship service that I disagree with because it glorifies man instead of god, and brings the world into the Church. Contemporary as you used it is an equivocation of the word as I used it. Just replace it with 'modern'
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
So did the Israelites bust out with electric guitars, drums, and pyrotechnics? HHHHMMM......No because the technology was not around
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
So did the Israelites bust out with electric guitars, drums, and pyrotechnics? HHHHMMM......No because the technology was not around
First of all, Pergy,
I think you'd be right to acknowledge that I didn't disparage raising hands, I just said my opinion of how it OUGHT to be done. I didn't ask you to agree with that, I just offered my judgment based on what I understand the purpose for the assembly of the host of the Lord, i.e. the church gathered.
I was the first person in this thread to offer the quote from 1Tim.2:8.
Since my claim that SOME motives are exactly as I've described them has been corroborated by a former holder of those opinions [see above], I don't think that highlighting the pesudo-spirituality of some of the hand-waving, and thereby noting that perhaps the abuse of a thing should be checked if possible, is a misplaced goal.
I also said I would not say a word to anyone who was not bothering anyone with his private moment of passion, publicly displayed. If I experience one of those, I hope no one bothers me either! Chances are, it would be just tears running down my cheeks, but that's just me. I'm not one of those "unselfconscious exuberants" who gets the joy, and raises hands and does the swaying.
But I'll tell you, if he starts to prostrate himself (because that's in the Bible lots too) someone is probably going to ask him if he needs a doctor.
I mean, at what point does worship stop being about ME and how I'M feeling about the moment, insisting that I have a right to express myself "biblically"; and become more about my BROTHERS, and the church as a unit?
Finally, the point about uniforms is just rhetorical hyperbole.
I'm serious; its not as if the Scriptures have nothing at all to say on the subject of unity, order, or decorum in worship.
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn,... 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, ... 40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
I'll simply go back to what I said at first. I have a suggestion for the raising of hands; anyone is welcome to like it or leave it. Here it is: Let's all do it together. Or let the leader (or the one doing the public prayer--same thing) do it for the rest. Because if it gets out of hand, if its obvious we are not all operating out of the same playbook, then our witness suffers.1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
Tim
Puritan Board Graduate
I have noticed that a common practice is to lift hands during the chorus and not during the verse. At times, you can predict when people will do it, as if on cue when the "emotional" part of the chorus occurs.
I have never really asked people why they do it. I can say that when I went to a church in the past that was more charismatic, I felt a sort of peer pressure to lift hands.
Just some observations.
I have never really asked people why they do it. I can say that when I went to a church in the past that was more charismatic, I felt a sort of peer pressure to lift hands.
Just some observations.
Pilgrim's Progeny
Puritan Board Sophomore
I too felt somewhat pressured to lift my hands, and even felt somewhat more spiritual in doing so to he extent that I lifted my hands regardless of mood and circumstance, only because it was expected.
FenderPriest
Puritan Board Junior
Hey Bob,
You're not putting me on the spot - and yet you are!
I try to only post on threads where I feel I can expound beyond the original post, so no worries about asking.I think, in retrospect, saying "my whole body must respond" sounds a little more, er, ecstatic than I meant it to (i.e. shaking around, etc.). What I mean is that there'll be the desire to jump on occasion (not that often) or clap hands, stomp feet, while responding to the glory of God in the Gospel during songs at church - or at home, whichever. So, anyhow, that's just to clarify the phrase.
Part of my reason for doing so is simply that I see that pattern in Scripture. If there's anything we learn about the worship depicted for us in the Revelation in the throne room of heaven, it's that it is at least a "full person" exercise. That is, it involved a loud voice, and an active body with it. It's a conscious use of the body to express the value of God.
For me personally, the parts of worship in song that I raise my hands during, maybe a jump or two in my space, or do a little hip jiggle (j/k), are the parts where by the Spirit's illumination the glory of Christ is most precious to me, where I am more keenly aware of that invitation, "taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). And because I do taste and see that he is good, I want my physical reactions to convey to him his value.
Does that a helpful answer?
he beholds
Puritan Board Doctor
Hey Bob,
You're not putting me on the spot - and yet you are!
I think, in retrospect, saying "my whole body must respond" sounds a little more, er, ecstatic than I meant it to (i.e. shaking around, etc.). What I mean is that there'll be the desire to jump on occasion (not that often) or clap hands, stomp feet, while responding to the glory of God in the Gospel during songs at church - or at home, whichever. So, anyhow, that's just to clarify the phrase.
Part of my reason for doing so is simply that I see that pattern in Scripture. If there's anything we learn about the worship depicted for us in the Revelation in the throne room of heaven, it's that it is at least a "full person" exercise. That is, it involved a loud voice, and an active body with it. It's a conscious use of the body to express the value of God.
For me personally, the parts of worship in song that I raise my hands during, maybe a jump or two in my space, or do a little hip jiggle (j/k), are the parts where by the Spirit's illumination the glory of Christ is most precious to me, where I am more keenly aware of that invitation, "taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). And because I do taste and see that he is good, I want my physical reactions to convey to him his value.
Does that a helpful answer?
I do sometimes feel like clapping when my pastor says something great. And I do tear up sometimes, which is also a physiological/emotional response.
I do laugh if something is funny.
So emotions cannot be ruled out.
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Yes, thanks.
I'll have to reread Revelation 4 and 5 to better understand what you're referring to. I'm sure what you say about it is true. Given that its in there, how do we then determine if the intent was to provide information about how we are to worship now...or not?
FenderPriest
Puritan Board Junior
I would simply see all of Scripture as instructive and from God for our knowledge of him. I imagine one could read Rev. 1:3, "blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" as indicating that we should follow the pattern of worship seen in the angelic beings (4 angels, 24 elders, etc.). I'm not sure about that though (since the verse speaks more to perseverance than to worship practice). However, my line of thinking on the angelic pattern as instructive for our own worship is that their worship pleases God, and thus should be a pattern we should desire to follow in desiring to do what pleases and glorifies God. Their reaction to God's glory tells a lot about their understanding of God and their value of God (that he's holy, that no one but God stands in his presence, etc.). I know that some RPW folks take these scenes as a picture of the church triumphant, and thus not for us today). I'm not convinced by that. In the end, I don't see any legitimate reason to think we shouldn't follow their example, especially considering the psalmists own instructions on worship (raise hands, be loud, etc.).
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
Let's see if I understand this: The matter of raising hands, laying prostrate, being moved emotionally in the worship of a holy God, who without input or merit on my part chose me from eternity past, forever became flesh, suffered the wrath of the Eternal Father which should have been mine, gave me his righteousness, and for some strange reason desires to have me serve him is inappropriate?
I don't get it. I'm not saying that anyone is less 'spiritual' or mature if they don't worship in this manner, but the opposite sure seems to be implied by some.* God made each of us different. We communicate differently, we 'emote' differently, and God loves it.
*EDIT: The apparent implication often comes across that those of who are more 'emotive' in worship are somehow less mature or spiritual than those who are less emotive.
I don't get it. I'm not saying that anyone is less 'spiritual' or mature if they don't worship in this manner, but the opposite sure seems to be implied by some.* God made each of us different. We communicate differently, we 'emote' differently, and God loves it.
*EDIT: The apparent implication often comes across that those of who are more 'emotive' in worship are somehow less mature or spiritual than those who are less emotive.
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Lawrence,
I'm certainly not flipping this thing on its head and accusing the "more" emotional of immaturity.
But as soon as you tell the first person in your church, "Hey! Stop 'dancing before the Lord,' brother, you're disturbing the other 99 sheep," have you just placed a limit on the Holy Ghost? The guy was doing cartwheels in the aisle!
You might say, "Well, that's obviously..." Whoa! That's a subjective standard. How dare you impose on the Almighty... David did it.
Is the gathering of the saints just so we can loosely aggregate our "individualities", our atomized spirits, in one place for an hour? We slip in and out of the corporation, like flower children at Woodstock?
I'm suggesting that perhaps church-gathering is for a different purpose. And if so, then we need to ask "how does God want me to worship him corporately, IN BODY and spirit?" That's a question to be answered from the Bible, and not according to however I feel the Spirit is moving me. And how I worship him in the corporate body is not necessarily supposed to look the same as when I am all alone.
I'm certainly not flipping this thing on its head and accusing the "more" emotional of immaturity.
But as soon as you tell the first person in your church, "Hey! Stop 'dancing before the Lord,' brother, you're disturbing the other 99 sheep," have you just placed a limit on the Holy Ghost? The guy was doing cartwheels in the aisle!
You might say, "Well, that's obviously..." Whoa! That's a subjective standard. How dare you impose on the Almighty... David did it.
Is the gathering of the saints just so we can loosely aggregate our "individualities", our atomized spirits, in one place for an hour? We slip in and out of the corporation, like flower children at Woodstock?
I'm suggesting that perhaps church-gathering is for a different purpose. And if so, then we need to ask "how does God want me to worship him corporately, IN BODY and spirit?" That's a question to be answered from the Bible, and not according to however I feel the Spirit is moving me. And how I worship him in the corporate body is not necessarily supposed to look the same as when I am all alone.
OK, LU,
I'm tired of arguing about it.
Personally, I just wanted it clear that painting my position as one being against hand raising was improper.
Then, to be clear that I wasn't taking a position on the hearts or immaturity of hand raisers.
I'm tired of arguing about it.
Personally, I just wanted it clear that painting my position as one being against hand raising was improper.
Then, to be clear that I wasn't taking a position on the hearts or immaturity of hand raisers.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
I understand. I wasn't trying to impune anyone. I may have been misunderstanding some of what you were saying. No offense meant. I do think that culture has more of a role to play in this than some would warrant. Case in point: I grew up in the non instrumental Church of Christ. Just about anything that would be viewed as a display of emotional response in any form was suspect if not condemned. Imagine my surprise when I went to Latin America and saw churches with the exact same theological standards clapping, smiling, raising hands, etc. when they would sing corporately! Not just one congregation, but almost all of them. It became very clear that it was a cultural difference. Those same differences exist in our nation as well. They may not be as clearly cut, but they are here nonetheless.
Ok, guilty as charged on the rhetorical hyperbole charge.
You've won me over - the unity thing is nice. I think you are right.
About prostrating.....yes, that would be odd.
by the way, I always mispronounce and then crack up laughing at that hymn "Crown him LOrd of all..." because when they sing "let angels prostrate fall.." I always say "angel's prostates..." I guess that is a lot more distracting than some high on the Spirit fella swaying to the music in front of me.
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
The culture around us, I'm sure (?) you'll agree, shouldn't dictate how we are to worship, what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. How do we put cultural differences into their proper place when determining how we should conduct ourselves during corporate worship?
-----Added 11/26/2008 at 12:52:33 EST-----
I was tempted to say that this is yet another argument in support of the EP position, but I'll refrain.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Why? EP says nothing about culture, you could write a latin tune to a Psalm, raise your hands and dance to it, mispronounce words, etc...
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
As I said, "I was tempted to say". I'm glad I didn't actually come out and say it, 'cause you're right.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
This is a good point. It illustrates the difference between viewing public (corporate) worship as:
God telling the Body of Christ to worship him corporately (together) in this way (regulative principle of worship, regulated by the express command of the Holy Spirit speaking through Scripture)
v.
Man doing what man imagines he, individually, will do to worship God
(worship based on personal interpretation of what the Holy Spirit is leading him to do at that moment. Unregulated principle of worship)
v.
Man doing anything he understands is generally permissible in Scripture but without reference to the corporate worship context around him (this may still be governed by the regulative principle of worship as to form because Scripture does countenance lifting of hands, but not done decently and in order with reference to the corporate nature of the worship taking place around him).
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Thanks - and just 'cause I am home between teleconferences:
Psalm 116:1-9 blues style to these lyrics
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
Seeing as I don't doubt that the affections aroused by God in the religious revivals of past centuries were valid (via Jonathan Edwards among others), I am certainly not averse to other people raising their hands or doing other minor expressions in worship -- assuming, of course, that they are being done for the right reasons.
With that, there is always a caveat, usually because of church unity, as Bruce said. The unity of the church can be defined and maintained with principles, but not with strict applications, as the Churches of Christ visited by Lawrence can attest to. That is, since unity is ultimately rooted in a personal feeling -- "Do I feel as part of a coherent whole with the rest of the congregation?" -- there will always be a subjective aspect to unity, but since there are many similarities between people -- e.g. I bet people would agree with my dislike of people doing cartwheels as a means of "expressing themselves" -- there is much overlap and therefore an objective aspect of church unity.
So, my view would be that emotional expressions are allowed in worship insofar as they do not disrupt unity, which is strictly up to the other people in the congregation. As one instance, it would be wrong to raise one's hands amongst a congregation that would be distracted or otherwise rubbed the wrong way by doing so, but it would be perfectly permissible in a congregation which did not care. It would be universally wrong to do cartwheels in the middle of worship, but only because that is something which would be disliked and averse to unity in all congregations (I think it would!).
With that, there is always a caveat, usually because of church unity, as Bruce said. The unity of the church can be defined and maintained with principles, but not with strict applications, as the Churches of Christ visited by Lawrence can attest to. That is, since unity is ultimately rooted in a personal feeling -- "Do I feel as part of a coherent whole with the rest of the congregation?" -- there will always be a subjective aspect to unity, but since there are many similarities between people -- e.g. I bet people would agree with my dislike of people doing cartwheels as a means of "expressing themselves" -- there is much overlap and therefore an objective aspect of church unity.
So, my view would be that emotional expressions are allowed in worship insofar as they do not disrupt unity, which is strictly up to the other people in the congregation. As one instance, it would be wrong to raise one's hands amongst a congregation that would be distracted or otherwise rubbed the wrong way by doing so, but it would be perfectly permissible in a congregation which did not care. It would be universally wrong to do cartwheels in the middle of worship, but only because that is something which would be disliked and averse to unity in all congregations (I think it would!).
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
I guess that brings me back to square 1. Me raising hands during worship is foreign to me. If I were in a church where everybody was unified that its acceptable to express yourself by raising your hands, etc., I'd still be looking around, scratching my head (figuratively...maybe literally), wondering why I would raise my hands as an act of worship. Bowing my head during worship, I show reverence for God. Raising my hands, I show _______.
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
trust, dependence, longing...
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Now that's what I'm looking for. Thanks!
blhowes;4
There are some in our church who raise hands during singing, and some who don't, I do on occasion, it's actually something I struggled with internally for awhile and wouldn't raise hands because 'nobody' else was (when really there were some, I just hadn't looked close enough), and felt it would be distracting to others, and I realized I was more concerned about man and what they would think than God, and what He was convicting me of doing.
If it was distracting someone else, why were they looking at me (just as why was I looking to see what they are doing)? Their focus, just like mine should be on God, not on what someone across the church or next to me is doing, if I am focusing on them, then my focus is not where it needs to be...On God and God alone,
I've come to see when I stop thinking about what others might think, and place my on God where it belongs, my hands go up in praise to Him, especially when I'm singing..
So I guess my question back to you would be...why are you focusing on others who may be lifting their hands in praise to God and not God?
If your being distracted by that, that alone should get you to thinking..wait a minute..why am I looking at what they are doing..
"God forgive me for looking at them and not You"
But I've never seen anyone get up and do cartwheels or start yelling or dancing..and have had no desire to do so myself..but I have seen others in church, including our pastors on occasion raising hands during times of singing..and even then I feel convicted, not that I am not doing the same, but because I realize, my heart is not focused on God as it should be, it's being drawn away from him...not because of what they are doing..but merely because my heart is prone to be distracted from God, even during times of corporate worship.
There are some in our church who raise hands during singing, and some who don't, I do on occasion, it's actually something I struggled with internally for awhile and wouldn't raise hands because 'nobody' else was (when really there were some, I just hadn't looked close enough), and felt it would be distracting to others, and I realized I was more concerned about man and what they would think than God, and what He was convicting me of doing.
If it was distracting someone else, why were they looking at me (just as why was I looking to see what they are doing)? Their focus, just like mine should be on God, not on what someone across the church or next to me is doing, if I am focusing on them, then my focus is not where it needs to be...On God and God alone,
I've come to see when I stop thinking about what others might think, and place my on God where it belongs, my hands go up in praise to Him, especially when I'm singing..
So I guess my question back to you would be...why are you focusing on others who may be lifting their hands in praise to God and not God?
If your being distracted by that, that alone should get you to thinking..wait a minute..why am I looking at what they are doing..
"God forgive me for looking at them and not You"
But I've never seen anyone get up and do cartwheels or start yelling or dancing..and have had no desire to do so myself..but I have seen others in church, including our pastors on occasion raising hands during times of singing..and even then I feel convicted, not that I am not doing the same, but because I realize, my heart is not focused on God as it should be, it's being drawn away from him...not because of what they are doing..but merely because my heart is prone to be distracted from God, even during times of corporate worship.
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blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
I sit in the back, they sit in the front and are in my field of vision as I look at the song leader.
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